RS Grant

Ok I am confused... Not that hard I know!!

I am trying to decide what a fast car in the "real world" is..

My mate has been telling me that a CTR is a decent example of this, however, I think that a car which is to be considered fast in the real world has to be able to pull well and hard from low down the rev range. To be honest, how many people drive on their red-line everyday all day, thats why I cant see the CTR being a fast car in the real world...

Any others??

Any thoughts on the subject??

Cheers,
Grant

fastka

a fast car in the real world should do the quarter in 13 secs or less

anything else is just a quick car

NACRO

Some here would have you believe that diesels are the fastest "in the real world".

mik

Which is why Nacro is about to buy one.

brickboy

A CTR can be a fast "real world" car, but you have to rev it & stir the gearbox -- which some people don't like to do.

Other people define "real world" performance as a torquey motor which will pick up and overtake easily without stirring the 'box.

Car Magazine did an extreme version of this when they pitted a Diablo VT against a 106GTI. On a mix of A and B roads the point-to-point times were within a minute of each other.

Dracoro

It's as fast as the driver drives it.

NACRO

Actually we've come down on the side of the Skoda VRs, a petrol powered car. It was just so much better to drive than the diesels we tried. Including a 150BHP diesel Seat Leon- it was so much less fun to drive than the VRs- bad handling, felt nose heavy and was pretty slow at any meaningful speed.

Another bonus is that here in France Skodas are ultra rare, while he seat and VW stuff is literally everywhere.

mik

Octo RS is a nice car

BOB.T

If we're talking Real World performance surely the king of all comers is the Mercedes Sprinter, the really long ******

NACRO

Lol@mercedes sprinter- that's another diesel.

DuggE4

Here we go again!!........torque/lack of torque arguments all over again!! I find it incredible that people want to discuss the CTR so much.......

CrisPDuk

There is an interesting article by Dave Walker about the v-tec engine in this months Cars & Car Conversions. Basically all the v-tec system is is an insane, almost 'race' cam, with a soft cam to cope with the idle, emissions & torque requirements of a road car. The v-tec 'switching' is controlled by the ECU. Following some mapping he found that you can get more mid-range urge (at the expense of economy) if you lower the point at which the hot cam engages, he reckons that the switching point is where it is to emphasise the change, i.e purely for marketing purposes.

BTW Bob, yeah the sprinters are fast, but they aren't nearly as quick as a fully laden Snap-On van at five-to-beer on a Friday

Editted for Poss Peer Spilling

[Edited by CrisPDuk - 8/28/2003 7:08:16 PM]

Cosworth427

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"There is an interesting article by Dave Walker about the v-tec engine in this months Cars & Car Conversions. Basically all the v-tec system is is an insane, almost 'race' cam, with a soft cam to cope with the idle, emissions & torque requirements of a road car. The v-tec 'switching' is controlled by the ECU. Following some mapping he found that you can get more mid-range urge (at the expense of economy) if you lower the point at which the hot cam engages, he reckons that the switching point is where it is to emphasise the change, i.e purely for marketing purposes."
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I've explained the real use of V-TEC in this board in several threads now, and some people here still like to think an S2000 or CTR is a torqueless POS. It's amazing how many here praise the 205 GTI's, 306 Rallyes and Clio 172's when they all make less maximum torque and less torque at low RPM's than a CTR or S2000.

NACRO

Cosworth 427 not all of us think the VTECS are gutless or lack torque. Anyone who doesn't appreciate them hasn't driven one for long enough.

Just so you know.

NotoriousREV

I must admit, I've never driven a Honda VTEC, but I have driven a Toyota VVTi powered car and it was pish, really was gutless and the "step" in power felt like a con.

But look at the power and torque curves for the Accord Type R on dyno.scoobynet.co.uk The torque is flat as a fluke until 5750rpm where there's a dip and then it carries on as normal (actually it increases slightly). Makes me think the dip is engineered in to accentuate the VTEC, but it certainly isn't gutless.

SkodaMan

Well done that man Don't forget to stop by at http://www.briskoda.net

Incidentally, they do a Fabia vRS now. And it's a diesel. However, I don't think it deserves the badge. Ought to have been the 1.8 Turbo, or at least the PD 150 diesel, instead of that crummy 130 job

[Edited by SkodaMan - 8/28/2003 9:44:01 PM]

mik

Or they just have a different opinion to you

CrisPDuk

Cosworth 427 my post did not state that v-tecs are torqueless POS's. I merely said that an article by a writer whose opinion I respect, stated that moving the point at which the v-tec engages can result in MORE mid-range, & that Honda seemed to engage the cams as the 'soft' cams were tailing off in order to exagerate the v-tec effect.


For what it is worth I have co-driven an ex-Asquith motorsport Civic 1.6 v-tec on a gravel event and that car did not strike me as lacking in the torque department! It did strike me that it had a sight more grunt than it's tyres could cope with out of slower corners though

NACRO

From you comment above do you think that the VTEC engined cars lack torque and guts mik?

I don't- I just think the VTEC kick accentuates the fact that (relatively) not much happens until VTEC time. I casually dipped in and out of a previous thread about VTEC's and remember some comments about the fact the VTEC cars have more/similar torque to any other n/a petrol engine. They also rev like nothing else and turn in some amazing power figures for such small displacements.

mik

Not really mate - just responding to your comment that non-appreciation must mean you haven't driven one long enough

I've only ever driven a Toyota Corrola VTEC so can't really pass any sweeping comment ~ I found it frustrating in terms of peaky power delivery, and relative lack of low down torque. Just my preference.....

Some of the VTEC units seem to produce reasonable torque, but usually at high rpm (obviously). I think it's the relative lack of low down punch that folks comment on, but I haven't compared dyno traces to determine whether a Civic Type-R actually out-torques a GTI-6 at 4krpm or whatever.

There's little reason why VTEC's shouldn't produce reasonable mid-range punch ~ that's the idea behind the twin cam profile (although I'm sure valve sizes etc. are optimised for high flow ).

It's like driving for a minute a 130-140 on a runway ...coming off the runway onto a motorway and slowing to 70..... feels like you could get out & push. I think this is the psychological effect that adding VTEC to a std engine can give.

Corpulent Tosser

A fast car is one that corners well

si325i

BUGATTI'S EB 16.4 Veyron.
Si

NACRO

ah well.......the Veyrons all well and good but in "real world" driving I think you'll find some kind of chipped diesel is far faster. PMSL.

si325i

NACRO your might be right have be to auto too.

Si

mik

Nah ~ since 0-100 dictates how fast a vehicle is in any situation, we all know that top fuel dragsters are the fastest A-B.

NotoriousREV

I think the shortened version of this thread is:

"Real world power" depends on what the driver drives like and in what conditions. I prefer grunt and being lazy with the gearbox, others like to thrash. Therefore, some people prefer chipped diesel megatorque diesels, others like gutless rice burners (joke, people!). Personally, I'll take the Scoob as it's somewhere inbetween.

Cosworth427

Mik
================================================== ================
"I've only ever driven a Toyota Corrola VTEC so can't really pass any sweeping comment ~ I found it frustrating in terms of peaky power delivery, and relative lack of low down torque. Just my preference....."
================================================== =================

Toyota does not use the Honda VTEC system, Toyota's own VVT or VVTi isn't quite what VTEC is about. VVT (Variable valve timing) does what it says on the box, all it does is vary the timing. VTEC does MUCH more than that, and has done so a decade before any other car manufacturer.

VTEC, VVTi, to VANOS.

Think about it this way...

With VANOS, you can only change the timing of the cam shaft. That means it'll lift sooner or later. It'll never change the lobes of the actual camshaft. And think about what all you people pay money for to get more HP from your car...new (schrick usually) camshafts.

VTEC allows you to run a tame, torqey, gas milage cam at one stage, mid-level cam in your intermediate RPMS, and crazy lift cams up high for awesome power.

VTEC IS superior to VANOS . It's the reason Nissan has taken so long to come out with a VVT engine, because whereas most companies (Porsche Variocam, Toyota VVTi, etc) chose to use cam timing changes....Nissan developed a system like VTEC and now has 240HP SE20VET engines...

To conclude, though valve timing is important...lift and duration are MORE important.

- End of Quote.

NACRO

quote: "since 0-100 dictates how fast a vehicle is in any situation"

I don't think it does, however the fastest cars tend to have sub 17 sec 0-100 times. Work that one out.

My biggest "real world" dissapointment was how slow the 150 Tdi Leon was compared to the Skoda Vrs. Combine that with inferior handling and I can't see how the diesel can compete in performance terms. It was really that much slower- especially on the motorway/autoroute.

mik

Cosworth ~ whoops

I know the differences in technology, but thought the Corolla was a VTEC (redface smiley thing).

Nacro ~ out of interest was it the FWD or Haldex version of the Leon150?

NACRO

It was the 4X4 and the drivetrain sapped the power- that I'm sure of.

I've driven a "normal" diesel Leon hire car for a few 100 KM's and it was just as fast as this 150. Think it was a 115 but can't be sure as it didn't say on the rental docs.