ChrisB

Not

500 miles racked up this weekend of which ~450 were in the company of Scoobies and a Nissan 200sx.

The TDi did it's self proud on A,B and C roads. It was anything but a mobile roadblock. Given the comments I received over the weekend, I think one or two folks were surprised by the jolly old tractor...

Still, we all know the twisties aren't real world performance, don't we?

mutant_matt

...and the new TDi's are not at all cheaply tunable for big torque either!!!

Matt

ChrisB

Nope.

Only a front strut brace on mine

mik

Pah! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

You must have forced them to agree in advance not to keep stopping & drag racing to 100, like everyone does in "real" fast driving.

LG John

I've always been a big diesel fan and recently drove my uncles A6 2.5TDI quattro and remember thinking 'this is pretty punchy' - he's selling it and I considered asking how much he was wanting until I took it out and raced it against the scooby. The A6 felt fast but it got totally humped by the scooby by a massive distance - lovely car to drive but NOT fast. Then I tried to chuck it round some corners and that was v. scary!!

NACRO

I can't help thinking how desperate you diesel boys are to convince others (and probably yourselves) that your noisy tractor engined cars are fast.

Remember the driver is what makes the difference as ably demonstrated by the relatively slow lap times I put in on the Nurburgring in a petrol engined scooby compared to the lap times another member here posted in his diesel engined BMW.

I think one thing that can't be argued is that for the time being at least, the fuel of choice for ultimate performance is currently PETROL and not diesel.

Regarding your real world comments- I destroyed yet another diesel engined "performance" car from the peage booth last week- try telling the sad looking owner of the 330D that 0-100 times don't matter. Ditto the owner of the TDi Golf who had his *** handed to him on a plate from the traffic lights (following his maniac attempts to overtake me in a 50kph zone).

0-100 in over 20 seconds- that'll be the diesel.

ChrisB

I've gotta run out now, but

There's a lot of them in the Welsh hills. They're a right pain in the *** on those single track mountain roads...

NACRO

"There's a lot of them in the Welsh hills. They're a right pain in the *** on those single track mountain roads..."

errrr........I don't live in Wales or anywhere near there so there aren't a lot of Welsh hills near me or near most people who don't live near Wales. That being the case I don't really get your point. I do however have a large number of peage booths to tackle every day on my commute to work so I come across that particular peage scenario 8 times a day.

Having said that I do have some fine dual carriageways near me which go through the Pyrenees. The few diesel performance cars I've come across there didn't seem to have the legs of my Impreza either. Strange that as I thought diesels were faster than anything else- at least if one was to listen to the guff you boys come out with.

The driver is the most important component when it comes to times in the "twisties" not the car. All we have to fall back on with that variable taken out of the picture are the figures and the rare occasions when a pro driver takes out a petrol engined car, then its diesel engined equiv. On both of those counts petrol wins and diesel comes second- in a cloud of evil black smoke.

What strikes me as very telling is your need to crow on here about diesel "performance" cars- I guess if you keep saying it then some people might start to believe. We've already done this one to death but you can't resist the temptation to start it all over again.

NACRO

Let me guess.....there aren't any traffic lights in your day to day drive either? All you do is drive up and down a magazine style test route using your torque to minimise the amount of gear changing you have to do?

Getting back on track- a performance car, IMHO at least, needs to excel in all areas of performance. Not just in gear times, not just rolling starts but standing starts, 0-100, grip, handling etc etc. Generally diesels as yet just don't have that all round ability. Thus why TDi engined diesel guy gets smoked at every set of lights- usually to their extreme annoyance.
I notice all the diesel folk tend to say- I don't drive like that anyway. Perhaps thats because you know you will lose?

We aren't talking about "the best all round car"- as far as I can see that would have to have a diesel engine for range and economy balanced against power and speed- but "performance cars" and the best perfomance cars use petrol and not diesel- learn to live with it.

Dark Blue Mark

My old man's BMW 330D sport feels near as quick as my scoob, and pulls better.

MB

NACRO

nearly as fast is the key phrase, in fact they are slower, timing gear would prove this.

They do feel as though they "pull better" that is due to the massive torque the produce. This also makes them very flexible.

They are however slower than the equiv petrol motor so in performance terms they are an also ran. Nice car though.

mik

Ooh deja-vu

So can you this time please explain your definition of equivalence?

- Similar size in cc
- Similar power output
- Similar cost of car
- Similar amount of fuel used

Thanks

Dracoro

The equivalent one will be the diesel that is not as quick as the petrol one

NACRO

"So can you this time please explain your definition of equivalence?"

yes

We can discount economy as we aren't talking about which will save a few quid at the pumps,irrelevant to me at least, but "performance cars" so MPG is of no interest.

Equivalent to me means comparing a similar model offering both power plants. A good example of this is the 330ci and 330D both cost similar amounts. One of them is a performance car, the other is a diesel. You have a choice when you choose to buy a 3 series at the top end- either the fastest car no compromise or the diesel.
Some will say well the power outputs are different etc etc- fact is in this case the petrol cost the same and goes faster. Therefore it is the performance car. End of story.

Another interesting comparison would be to take say a 7K budget and buy the best performance car that it will buy with both power plants. Off the top of my head I thought of a UK Impreza running 215bhp to represent petrol and a 325TDS 3 series to represent diesel. You tell me which is the performance car?

Petrol cars outperform their diesel counterparts in the ultimate analysis- for now. When Porsche make a diesel 911, the M dept produce a diesel M5 etc and they outperform their petrol equivs then I'll believe.

misty

Oh! so elequently put, Nacro.
dave.

RS Grant

Alpina produce a twin turbo 3.0 TD........... and that is a weapon, IIRC as fast as their petrol equivalent...

Cheers,
Grant

ozzy

Fair enough, I've yet to hear of a diesel supercar. But you can't argue if a diesel manages to stay up with a load of Impreza's now can you.

Stefan

ChrisB

Where did that theory come from?

I've covered 000s of miles of driving with CharlieWhiskey (CW). We did something like 1500 miles running as together in our Scoobies on the Tour d'Ecosse 2001 alone. We seem (IMHO at least) to be pretty well matched drivers. Only he can answer how hard he was driving at the weekend but I thought it was a normal pace for us and I kept up with him.

Given how I didn't end up in any hedges at the weekend, the smoke belcher special can't handle or grip that badly then, can it?

When Evo mag do a full test feature on cars, do they head for the nearest traffic lights to form their opinions? Nope, they head off to Wales, Scotland or somewhere else with proper roads...

tfc

didnt a bmw tdi win a 24hr race a few years back?????

NACRO

"the smoke belcher special can't handle or grip that badly then, can it?"

No one said it did, I imagine it's quite a tool. Is it modified? At least they are not in general. The point is that petrol is the powerplant of choice if you want ultimate performance. There are some fast diesels out there and most have been modded in some way.

I also can't understand why standing starts aren't regarded by some as "real world". I do them all the time from the lights etc etc.

I can't understand why you diesel boys try to polarise the argument in such a way as to deflect away from the fact that diesels tend to be slow in comparison to their petrol counterpart. No one is saying they are slow or crap, just that they are a compromise when compared to petrol.

Compare a modded Petrol of similar BHP to a modded diesel, which do you think would be faster? I've no preconceptions either way at the moment, although I would tend to imagine that say a highly tuned VAG petrol engine pumping out 250bhp plus would beat a tuned PDi motor. I think the problem is once you start comparing modded cars then the skies the limit. Better to stick to standard models of the same type for a meaningful comparison.

NACRO

So which is faster a turbodiesel VAG car/BMW (most common choices for diesel owners)or an Impreza? My money is on the Impreza. With equal drivers I think it would be faster in every measurable way.

Interesting question- one I've seen answered first hand. The Impreza won in this case.

Let me guess though, on the twisties etc you could beat one? Or just keep up? It is a lot harder to lead than follow. On a track given equal drivers the diesel loses.

I think top gear did an interesting test with Tiff driving a gold coloured 330D and a silver 330ci (may even have been a 328ci). The petrol won.

Dracoro

Right, given that performance is just that, a diesel can be a performance car if it's fast enough. No other conditions apply surely. What fuel the car runs on is of no importance I'd say.

Soooo, what is a performance car?

min (or should I say max) 0-60, 30-70, 0-100 etc.??

Let's take a golf Mk2 gti 16v or a pug 1.9 gti. Are these performance cars? There are diesels out there faster than these two.

Simon S3

NACRO,

It was EVO that did the 330i/330d test. I can`t remember the exact outcome, the petrol probably did win.

You do "from the lights, standing start runs" every day? (Yes, I know we all do starts from the lights, most people don`t play traffic light GP)

I don`t think I`ve done one in the last ten years! This petrol/diesel debate will go on and on and on. There are good diesel engined cars out there (My Father has owned two, A6 2.5 TDI quattro and E 270 CDI) and I was ready to go diesel when I last changed cars. I tried a 320d, 325i and an S3. Now, if I could have afforded it I`d have got a 330d (Also tried one, only briefly mind) because it is a very complete car.

Your argument that petrol is the fuel of choice for ultimate performance is correct. What you fail to understand is that most people have to make compromises in their choice of car.

To many people, a diesel car now makes good financial sense. The fact that they can also be rapid and fun is the compromise that swings it.

MattOz

It's the old performace diesel chestnut again! LOL

ChrisB, I'm with you mate. I love my petrol cars but need to compromise. If a quick performance petrol car offered decent economy to boot, then I'd not need a 330d. Unfortunately, nobody does one.

An Impreza Turbo, 330Ci, M5, Murcielago , whatever, will have my 330d to 100. Enormous deal. I'll arrive at 100 several seconds later. No problem. I can handle it.

It seems that it's the "performance petrol" boys that are having difficulty grasping the idea that overall, diesels are more performant than their beloved unleaded guzzlers

NACRO, I do understand where you're coming from. It just that we have slightly different views on performance

Matt
8min47 at the Ring in a diesel!

NACRO

Quote: "Your argument that petrol is the fuel of choice for ultimate performance is correct. What you fail to understand is that most people have to make compromises in their choice of car.

To many people, a diesel car now makes good financial sense. The fact that they can also be rapid and fun is the compromise that swings it."

er yes, no and no.

We aren't talking about cars that make financial sense- I thought we were talking about performance cars? I'm aware they (diesel cars) can be rapid and fun, it's just that for the same amount of money you will be more likely to get more speed from a Petrol engined car.

Regarding the pug205Gti+ Golf compare them to "performance" diesels from their day and tell me which was quicker? (I can only think of one contender)

I'm not anti-diesel, I just don't think they offer as much performance as petrol. Cheaper to run maybe but faster? Not really.

Dracoro

NACRO - of course the golf & pug were faster than the diesels of the day BUT there ARE diesels now that are faster. Therefore if we are to say that the mk2 golf & the pug ARE performance cars then anything faster than them are also performance cars. Age, fuel, size etc. all irrelevant as my example 'definition' of a performance car comes down to the performance figures.

cletterridge

I can go one better than diesel performance car....

Hey presto, one diesel *SPORTS* car!





http://www.benerridge.freeserve.co.uk/ecos.htm

NACRO

If you read the test on the ECO speedster you'll find its anything but a performance car.

Regarding the pug205/VWgti V dieselthing- the yardstick has now moved and your comparison applies equally to petrol cars ie they have moved on too. We need to compare like with like or we could say petrol cars are slower and use a 3 cylinder Daewoo Matiz V Toerag Diesel V10 to prove the point. Or N/A diesel punto van V 911. That said I don't think your argument holds any water. Buy a 205Gti for 1K then a diesel for the same amount- tell me which would be faster?

All the diesels I've driven had worse handling than their petrol counterpart as well. Perhaps because of the weight over the nose? This could be beneficial and provide traction I suppose but not in the case of any that I've driven.

NACRO

Thought I'd better clarify the speedster comments- read the Autocar/Express features on it. Runs on energy saving tyres and handles like a pig.

Rich and Mini

My Saxo VTS, which is same performance as a Pug 205 1.9gti and quicker than a Golf GTi has EXACTLY the same performance as a 330D, 0-60 and 0-100. Yet the 330D has effortless performance, whereas my VTS needs to be thrashed to keep it moving "fast", so for everyday useable performance, the 330D has it licked. Where's the fun in effortless performance though...? Keeping the Saxo in "the zone" is fun and makes you feel like a hooligan, nothing like dropping from 5th to 2nd at 50mph to make it shift

Rich