UkLegacyT

as title, a mates got a rover 416, n-reg with the k-series engine. the headgasket has just gone......is it best to skim the head on these engines?

thanks
ian

MGJohn

If it needs it ....Yes.

When it's back together, ensure that the cooling system is charged and bled correctly and check frequently that the coolant level is never allowed to drop below minimum.

Head gaskets can fail on any car which has a coolant loss. So check the level frequently until you're confident that all is well. Still check regularly. Even a slow coolant loss can quickly develope into a more serious one resulting in head gasket failure or worse.

UkLegacyT

thanks john

corradoboy

Don't really know a lot about these engines but beware where you buy your gasket. These things apparantly need a wet lined gasket or something. Fitting those cheap card/cork things from Motosave will simply result in another failure 6 months later (as my m8 found out). Speak to a reputable engine specialist or Rover dealer.

midget1500

if u read any mg boards they'll tell u to fit a "copper"? competition gasket - mike satur springs to mind

UkLegacyT

ah thanks guys, hadnt thought about that. he was gonna go a buy a gasket set from a local motorshop tomoz, will stop him now, thanks for the warning!

i will speak to a rover tuner etc then and find out, poss Motobuild or the like...?

cheers, ian

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Thought the 416 had the Honda engine ?

Gary VR6

Yeah, I thought the 1.6 that rovers used at the time were Honda engines, too, not K series lumps. That doesn't mean they don't go pop though - my m8s 416 (K reg - old shape) lost it's head about a year ago - gone twice more since then. I had similar probs with a honda civic (EG) 1.6 esi about 4 years back - important to get it done right to stop it happening 2 or 3000 miles later.

Gren

Had an N reg 216 a few years ago and it was definitely the K series engine. Nice little engine too.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

If your going to get it skimmed you may as well get it pressure/crak/warp tested too.

Damn, keep getting NET SEND messages...what the hell is wrong with my firwall

Brendan Hughes

Try www.blatchat.com - it's the caterham 7 board, they can tell you a lot about tuning a k-series.

UkLegacyT

thanks again, yep deffo the rover engine, its got the k-series black rocker cover, some of em had rover engines, some had honda...

am gonna search some sites now for info/parts....cheers

MGJohn

Always try to use Rover or Unipart Head gaskets .... they maybe a little more costly but in the long run........ Failure to use original equipment is sometimes false economy. That's how many repeat HGFs occur on many makes of car which can create a false impression.

Worth mentioning .... Just returned from a local breakers .... several smaller Rovers fresh in with tidy looking K series engines. Why not get a spare used head - very much cheaper on a remove it yourself basis than off the shelf, so it's a basis I prefer as apart from savings, I can examine the engine in situ - not cleaned up on a shelf. Some of the MoT failures are driven to local breakers with perfectly sound engines. Many owners can't be bothered with their older cars now, particularly as many now buy new whereas in the past, a youngish used car would be their first choice.

Attitudes are changing and many car buyers now consider anything needing an MoT as OLD!!! Very wasteful ..... but some can benefit in many ways ...

UkLegacyT

yeah, he did mention about doing that John, but decided against it as his car has very low miles, thought best to stick with his os of low wear etc.

slight development with the car, and was hoping any of you could advise

its probably better if i just write the whole of whats happened with his car, makes it easier to judge:

problems started about a week ago, the car had a misfire, but only for about 30 secs while cold, then all fine.
he told me that it smoked a little while misfiring, but only just mentioned it was white smoke.
so, i cleaned up the connections on the HT leads etc as we had just had heavy rain, thought it was worth a shot being only a 10min job.

anyway, still the same happened. he said he would get new plugs/leads to try them as they hadnt been changed in the 8 months of him owning the car.

then, he phoned me the other day to say it had heated right up, but he switched it off well before it went into the red. told him to check water etc, no water in header tank, so he filled it and ran the car for about 20 secs, water had disappeared again. he looked for any leaks, nothing obvious, but said that he could hear a hissing coming from down the back of engine. so, i told him to leave it and then i went to have a look that evening.

first thing i did was fill the water up to level, and he started the engine and ran it for say 20secs again, no misfire, ran perfect, but plenty of white smoke from the exhaust, and the water had disappeared, so at this point im thinking the head gasket. checked for any leaks around the engine bay and under the car just to see, but nothing.
he then pointed to where the hissing noise was coming from earlier, the back of the head on by cylinder no.4 so i looked, no sign of a leak at present, but a large area of rust (watermark) on the block just under where he pointed to. thought nothing of it re the problems.
next, checked dipstick, there were a few water spots in the oil, so i told him the headgasket had gone.

phew, getting there

today, i set to work to remove the head, and because of what i had seen, i didnt do a compression test first.
so, first off was the inlet manifold, which revealed something:
as i lifted it away, he pointed more specifically to where he had heard the hissing noise: the end of the inlet manifold flange by cylinder no.4
this is where a water chamber comes to a stop, with the flange and gasket preventing the water from escaping. however, it was clear that it had been leaking as there were rusty coloured water marks around the inlet port for cylinder no.4, including within the line of the gasket. it looks as though water has been getting past the gasket and into the port and hence the cylinder causing the white smoke. the tract for no.4 in the inlet manifold had some water in it, and was odourless and cleaner looking the the others, which were black and smelling of petrol.

so, compression test time, result are as follows:

no.1 = 235
no.2 = 220
no.3 = 230
no.4 = 245 all psi

so, being aware that a fluid in the cylinder (ie poss water in this case) can result in a higher compression reading, we had dinner then retested about an hour or so later:

no's 1-3 were very close to the original readings, but no.4 had dropped from 245 to 230 psi.

looking down the spark plug hole, no.4 piston had a few water droplets on it, very little though.

so, anyway, we decided it was worth just trying an inlet gasket just encase luck was on our side.

however, everywhere we tried had either shut at 12 noon, or didnt stock one.

so the car is just sat there now as is.

question: do we wait til monday and try an inlet gasket, or is it likley to be the head gasket?
anybody any idea or had a similar problem?

any help really appreciated

thanks
ian

UkLegacyT

anyone?.....

MGJohn

Very difficult to confidently predict what your problem is from here despite your comprehensive description. I think you've already reached the correct diagnosis though .... head gasket failure.

I think you've done the right thing so far. Before tearing it all apart, try and see if the coolant loss did not start somewhere else first, leading to overheating resulting in head gasket failure later ... or worse ...

Even so, for the cost of a manifold gasket that is worth a try and is what I would do given your observations. If it works fine ... if not, no real harm done.

UkLegacyT

thanks john, difficult to say as you mention, but worth a shot. my mate got a gasket today for less than £3, so will try it soon as ive got chance to get round there.

will post findings on here, thanks for the help so far guys
ian

UkLegacyT

latest news:

fitted the inlet gasket before. then we ran the car for about 15mins on his driveway. we didnt test drive it as i needed to get off, and there were 2 cars blocking it in so will do that tomorrow all being well.

during the 15min idle, there was a little white smoke, then it just turned to condensation, then clear. there was still condensation when revving it, but his car has always taken a while to clear froma cold start.
however, on the plus side, during the idle, the water level stayed perfectly on the max, and didnt use a drop, and the temperature stayed exactly half way up the scale as it did when driving it previously.....so fingers crossed, its looking promising so far

will update after we have test driven it, and if all goes well, will change the oil and filter straight away.

cheers
ian

Lee uk300

K-series cyl 4 side of inlet manifold gasket is very common.
I changed a few head gaskets before finding this one out.

Lee

[Edited by Lee uk300 - 7/31/2003 8:49:31 PM]

UkLegacyT

yeah, will remember about this one lee! it went by cyl 4 where the water port ends.

good news is....he's tried it tonight and its perfect

im just glad i spotted it before taking the head etc off, saved a lot of time and money. cost about £3 to repair lol

thanks again for all the help
ian

MGJohn

Good eh? Glad you got a good result.

Lee uk300 wrote:

>> I changed a few head gaskets before finding this one out.<<

You and a few thousand others .......

Still, creates lots of lucrative work for some garages and helps establish false reputations on a "Your Head gasket's gorn mate ...they all do that" basis ....

Reminds me ..... Some years ago, whilst chasing a Porsche in my old MG Montego (stop laughing at the back - he was holding me up... they're not all flying machines ... as the old gel reached 6,000 rpm in one of the lower gears she gave a hesitant cough and massive plumes of white smoke were clearly visible in the mirror emerging from the rear of the car. I created a local micro-climate bank of fog for a few seconds there it was so bad.....

Long story short, it was not an HGF as had been diagnosed by several more experienced than me. I looked carefully later to discover that short hose which ducted hot coolant from the thermostat housing to the heater matrix had suddenly split shooting most of the coolant directly over the hot exhaust manifold resulting in an "explosion" of steam. At near maximum revs, with the water pump working near maximum pressure, the aged hose let go splitting big time along most of its five inch length. I'm talking spectacular here ..... but that's all it was really.....spectacular. That new hose cost 2.50p and about 15mins DIY to fit. Someone with less "under the bonnet nouse" would have left the car at the first garage and awaited a bill for head gasket replacement. There's no guarantee that the garage would have discovered that split hose before cylinder head removal either. If they did, would they have let me know......... I wonder ...

UkLegacyT

thats very true that John, he was quoted £350 - 400 when he asked for a price at the local garage, thats why i said id do it!

well, as mentioned, his car is fine now (touch wood!) but somebody knocked the mirror off it earlier today when it was on the road , now the motor moves, but the glass doesnt, cant see the little connector arms at all.........oh well

cheers
ian

Andy-P

1. Older Rover 416/216 cars had Honda engines. After the new shape came out in '94/'95 they were then fitted with Rover engines.

2. Due to continuous problems with inlet manifold seals leaking at the coolant port next to number 4 inlet port, Rover brought out a modified inlet manifold seal which is thicker and green in colour as opposed to black of the old one. This new seal also should have been fitted with new head studs and special locking nuts which weren't fitted previously. This usually works a treat.

3. A common misdiagnosis is that the inlet manifold seal leaks, runs down the back of the cylinder head and follows the head gasket round to the front of the engine. This looks like the head gasket has failed, but it hasn't.

4. Never ever use aftermarket head gasket's on K series, like the ones from your local motor factors, you'll just end up doing the job twice.

5. In my experience the heads are not bad for warping, but if they have been overheated the sealing rings on the head gasket leave deep marks on the cylinder head face which will result in the head needing skimmed anyway.

MGJohn

Those with any interest in this head gasket info may find the following useful:

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/HGF_prevention.htm