LG John

He, he As I'm considering a CTR as a new car I've done some digging around on the net for reviews. I came across this hillarious one

Whoever wrote that review really doesn't get the performance car thing at all. I suppose we are expected to drive turbo cars off-boost then


HONDA CIVIC TYPE R Friday 5th April 2002



New hot hatch icon or noisy shopping car?

A lot has been written about the Honda Civic Type R elevating it to an almost iconic status. After getting my hands on one last week, I'd like to set the record straight. It's not. It's a well engineered shopping car with bolt on bits to excite spotty teenagers.

I'll no doubt be raising some hackles already amongst those loyal to rice burners, but tough - it's time to take off the rose tinted spectacles and the reversed baseball cap and recognise the car for what it truly is.

I'm not for one minute disputing that the acclaim the car has received for its chassis. It is a fine piece of work. With a wheel at each corner, a rigid bodyshell and some very sorted damping, the Type R handles superbly. Its steering is direct and at times feels deceptively quicker than the 2.7 lock to lock turns may suggest. Cross country the setup delights. The car feels very planted and it does remind the cynical amongst us that you can have fun with front wheel drive.

A Class

The interior works well with good ergonomics and extremely supportive seats although the raked windscreen and seating position did make me feel like I was driving an A Class. Interior space is generous.

The Civic can be a surprisingly harsh environment though. It's tempting to think that most modern cars are much of a muchness when it comes to interior refinement these days but it's certainly not the case. Driving at speed in the Type R does highlight a level of wind and tyre noise which is surprisingly intrusive for a modern car. Shouting at my passenger is a pastime I prefer to reserve for convertibles or arguments.

VTEC

My biggest disappointment was with the engine however. 2 litres, 197bhp? It's a useful headline grabber but it doesn't help when you're overtaking the numpty with the caravan. Maximum torque is a less impressive 145lb-ft. According to Honda 130lb-ft of that is delivered from 3000 rpm upwards. Bear in mind that's not much more than what an old 2 litre Astra GTE would put out a few years ago and you'll appreciate that there's nothing mystical about the performance of the Honda engine.

Whoa! I hear the VTEC enthusiasts screaming. Screaming is what it's all about after all isn't it? Hit 6000rpm and all hell breaks loose doesn't it? Well, hit the magic number and yes, the VTEC perks into life and starts hyperventilating. You'll feel a rush, well a pleasant surge as the engine decides that it's prepared to do a bit more to earn its crust. You've passed the max torque at 5,900 rpm though and you've got the needle screaming through the remaining 2000rpm rather quickly. It red lines at 8000 with the max power at 7400rpm. Needle time in that power band is fun, difficult to prepare for in everyday driving, and ultimately, pointless.

There's my gripe really. It's a hot hatch with a superb chassis, but let's keep some sense of proportion here. It's fun to chuck about, and it can nip to sixty in a chirpy 6.4 seconds - thanks to low gearing - but it is not the complete all round package that it could be. Peugeot's hatches of recent years can still hold their head high in the company of the Type R. A car of this type needs a great chassis and a torquey engine. Power is nothing without grunt. The VTEC screams like an pre-pubescent pig.

Honda say it's a "lean, mean and focused road going race car".

I say it's a noisy, nippy shopping car that handles.

The Zohan

They really missed the point, the VTEC does take some getting used to and i recon the CTR is a well engineered and focused car.

Tiggs

he didnt miss the point..he even made reference to it...he just happened to put another point of view. ohhhhhh, god forbid.

mozzaITA

Yeah ive got a GTE and i can kick CTR asssssses.... yeah right!! i wonder if he would do a swap? LOL

davyboy

Tiggs beat me to it, how dare he write a negative review about the car you will no doubt own!

Jonto

turboman786

Have to disagree with you guys, that exactly how I felt when I drove both an accord type r and a civic type r.....the vtec band is just too small and unuseable...but overall the CTR is a nice motor........as they say in school reports....could do better....

LG John

Not bothered what people think. I'll look at whether the car meets my individual needs and if it does then I'll buy it

I just found the review amusing because he basically slagged the car because you have to wind it up a little. It would be like slagging a scooby for having crap mpg! The scooby wasn't designed to have good mpg and the CTR certainly wasn't designed not to be revved - hence 'missing the point'

I personally like to rev the nuts of a car and given that you can get into the vtec from launch (if you're good) and stay in it all the time from 1st gear through to 6th I don't see how the zone can ever be described as too small. If you fall out of it, you ain't driving correctly - simple

LG John

Tiggs, I agree he put another point of view across and he's well entitled to do that but I don't see why he reviewed the car if he's clearly not an enthusiastic person when it comes to really working to extract power from a car. Its primarily a hot-hatch like performance car and should be assessed (IMHO) on that basis - anything else like comforts, space, build quality is just a bonus and performance should be the key determining factor. Ultimately if he wanted a car with more lower down power that is comfy and can do the shopping he should have reviewed the golf V5 or TD.

LanciaChris

As always its just his point of view, and I agree with him, I dont like to have to rag the nuts off a car to get any power out of it (hence why i chose a car that delivers max torque at ~3000rpm).

Diablo

LOL at the narrow power band comments

My teg had a mental 3000 rpm power band (5,900 to 8,900). That was, realistically, as wide if not wider than my MY99 scoob (say 3,500 to 6,000)

Civic is not much different. OK, so the scoob had more torque, but with a bit of familiarisation and a wonderfully close set of gear ratios its very easy to keep the VTECs on cam.

If anything it makes you a safer driver - you only rag the nuts off the VTECS when you really should be, as opposed to hurtling throught 30's 40's and 50's on a wave of forced induction torque.

Basically, what I'm getting at is if its safe to drive it flat out, its easy to do so.

D

RS Grant

I respect him for giving an honest opinion of the car, and dont see a problem with him sharing what he thought of the CTR with other enthusiasts...

However, surely if you fit a VTEC Controller you can extend the powerband, at the expense of MPG of course!?

Cheers,
Grant

Tiggs

its a £15k car and his point is that its a one trick pony. You can live with poor mpg in a scoob as its only a small part of the experience. He is saying that the problems with the civic are fundemental to the experience and effected his enjoyment of it.

Many Humbug Returns

I think it is a very well written and argued review, negative in it's conclusions, but those conclusions are fair criticism.

I can't believe I agree with Tiggs on something.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Saxo is right. If you can handle the car, launch well and keep it in the zone then it flies non-stop, no lag either The 'zone' doesn't matter.

Getting VTEC in 1st and keeping it there without serious wheelspin is no mean feat though You'd need cut-slicks to pull it off.

zedder123

you want a cooper S Graham Goode Racing conversion..yes you do...you know it makes sense...240bhp

LG John

I agree with Diablo re: safety. I often find that my car will pile on the speed without me realising it and fully concentrating. Even just last night I was half-heartedly making progress and I overcooked it coming off a roundabout in the wet and had to catch the back end. Fun yes, scarry yes, fully incontrol....probably not as I wasn't giving the car the full attention/respect I should and would of had I been 'going for it'. If I'd been working at 6k rpm+ and having to make effort to exploit serious power then I'd have been far more focused on the task at hand. Only bummer being that no amount of power will get step out on a FWD

I don't have a beef with the review. Its a fairly good review and puts his point across well. I don't feel the writer made enough of an issue of how much the sort of people that buy the car actually like to rev it. He doesn't so the car doesn't suit him but for the type of people that buy it then 9 times out of 10 its an absolute hoot and does exactly what it says on the tin. Therefore, Honda met their targets with the car did they not?

tiggers

It's horse for courses time again.

I currently own an Integra Type R and when I first got it I was a little disappointed after a Scoob mainly for the reasons mentioned in this thread. However, I'm not into it for much money and I decided to see if it would grow on me.

I have to say I'm glad I did - when you learn to drive it properly according to it's characteristics it's one hell of a good car for the money - the handling is awesome for a FWD and I'm enjoying it more and more each time I take it for a thrash.

I can see why the Honda Vtec's are not to everyone's taste, but I will be hanging on to mine for a while (unless I find a stupidly low priced Evo that is).

Regards,

tiggers.

juan

I agree. A lot of people don't want to be on the power all the time. What some want is the power to be available when you want it, not to have to plan ahead to get up to 7K+ revs and have your ears ragged just to get round a caravan or whatever. A nice surge (no not fuel) from 3K does the job nicely thank you.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

You don't really have to plan ahead though Just drop a cog or two and you're in the zone No nasty lag to catch you out

But I think everyone is in agreement that is 'horses of courses'. Personally I love it, although you do get some funny looks when you go raging past someone, wailing like a banshee (Not over the NSL of course )

[Edited by DJ Dunk - 05/06/2003 14:51:24]

S.B.

bluenosewrx

iTrader: (2)

"NICE CHASSIS AND A WHEEL AT EACH CORNER" LMAO,I HOPE A WHEEL AT EACH CORNER WOULD MATTER QUITE A BIT.

TelBoy

A while ago i tested an Accord Type R.

My opinion then was "underwhelming". Having to thrash a car to get it to go was something i grew out of when i sold my Mk2 16v Golf. But i guess if i were younger, it might appeal more.

blip

SB - how come you're selling the scoob already? It doesn't seem like you've had it that long and clearly spent a lot of time/energy/money getting to the stage of owning a nicely modded one. Why the change of heart?

LG John

I've had it a year believe it or not and its not so much a change of heart but a change of circumstances. I bought my flat and the running costs of the scooby are too much to justify keeping it and paying a mortgage and associated costs.

Also, I can't do what I want to the car I will perhaps get a scooby again in the future when I can afford to spend money on nice alloys, big brakes, big turbo's, etc. I sort of wish I never found SN as it makes you want more mods all the time

Cosworth427

I'm no "VTEC enthusiast" but I think that review is a load of biased and uninformed b1tchery. It makes me laugh to have clowns like that talking about something they claim to know about, but clearly show they DON'T know.

151 lbs of torque not impressive? It's not an engineering marvel, and no one with a brain tried to make it out as such. That damn 2 litre engine makes more torque than most other 2 litre motors, and a massive portion of that torque is available at high RPM - which explains a 195+ Horsepower output.

It's clear that the ***-clown who wrote that has no clue why many low displacement - high output hot hatches exist. Type-R cars are homologated vehicles for motorsport entry, and Honda have an extensive motorsport program. A bleeding turbocharger in stock trim will move a Civic and Integra right out of certain motorsport competitions.

Saxo Boy - do you have a link to that review source?

Many Humbug Returns

He doesn't need to know anything about the engineering in order to review the car.

In case you didn't realise, cars are for driving, and the reviewer is reviewing the overall driving experience, which is a valid task that he carries out accurately. It is not a sterile anorak's discussion of the technical merits of athe 2 litre VTEC thank God.

All in all, a well balanced, sensitive review IMHO.

LG John

Sorry cos I don't I was surfing (wow, how sad - never thought I'd use that word!!) when I stumbled accross it - I then cut and paste. I think it might have some relationshiop to Pistonheads though as I think I saw that in the header somewhere!

Diablo

LOL...yes it will

Drive an Integra R - you can get power oversteer, albeit not by the driven wheels spinning and breaking traction as in RWD or 4WD and not from a standstill.

Kenny, my Teg understeered less than my Scoob, except under power in the wet when the front washed out due to both wheels spinning (and at speed )

Having driven a civic R it probably needs the LSD of the japanese models, but I would suspect on track it would understeer less than standard scoob.

D

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

You can get an aftermarket LSD for the 2001 CTR now too Maybe worth a look.