Power shower electrics | One for a qualified sparky / plumber?
15 January 2014, 05:17 PM
#1
Power shower electrics | One for a qualified sparky / plumber?
One for a qualified sparky / plumber I feel...
In the ground floor extension to the side of the family home, I have a shower room, it currently has an electric shower of sorts, it is one that just uses electrickery to push the water out with some urgency, doesn't heat the water, so is reliant on the tank in the upstairs airing cupboard / immersion heater.
It's not the best setup and is better than the non-electric predecessor shower, but it's getting noisy and I think it's the impeller that's going to fail.
Now the shower run's off a domestic cable and not whatever the big juicy cable is that you have to use on a proper power shower. My dad tells me there is no legal way to run such a cable from the fusebox to where the ground floor shower is.
I've drawn a really really crude sketch of the jist of the ground floor layout, is there a way of doing it that would comply with current regs?
In the ground floor extension to the side of the family home, I have a shower room, it currently has an electric shower of sorts, it is one that just uses electrickery to push the water out with some urgency, doesn't heat the water, so is reliant on the tank in the upstairs airing cupboard / immersion heater.
It's not the best setup and is better than the non-electric predecessor shower, but it's getting noisy and I think it's the impeller that's going to fail.
Now the shower run's off a domestic cable and not whatever the big juicy cable is that you have to use on a proper power shower. My dad tells me there is no legal way to run such a cable from the fusebox to where the ground floor shower is.
I've drawn a really really crude sketch of the jist of the ground floor layout, is there a way of doing it that would comply with current regs?
15 January 2014, 05:44 PM
#3
I'm lead to believe this is not acceptable regs wise?
Sadly not, If only I lived at Downton Abbey 
There's a loft, but getting the cable into it on the staircase side of the house would be a PITA trunking wise, and then on the other side the shower room is a groundfloor only extension so would mean coming down an outside wall?
or do you have a cellar ?
There's a loft, but getting the cable into it on the staircase side of the house would be a PITA trunking wise, and then on the other side the shower room is a groundfloor only extension so would mean coming down an outside wall?
15 January 2014, 05:57 PM
#5
Something to do with such a cable running horizontally across a house? To be honest although my dad was once upon a time plumber, he's also a tight ******* and it could well have been a ploy in part when i was growing up to avoid £££ kilowatt power shower usage...
15 January 2014, 05:59 PM
#6
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Why would you remove a power shower and replace it with an electric one...thats a backward step,either get a new pump or get your pump checked as you could be drawing air or have a restriction on the inlet side of the pump ..hence the noise
15 January 2014, 06:41 PM
#9
The cable can go anywhere in or around the house , but I cant go horizontal burried in a wall.
15 January 2014, 07:17 PM
#10
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Well maybe you are the confused one fella...your shower runs off the hot water tank...its pumped by a pump with a noisy impellor ..its a mixer running off your tanks...,this makes it a power shower....An electric shower is not by definition a power shower its an instantaneous shower ...anyway crack on I only tried to help as you asked for qualified plumber/electrician which I am
15 January 2014, 07:23 PM
#11
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If your hot water supply is OK, just replace the pump with a newer more efficient one. You don't need a large cable for that. The reason electric showers need a hefty cable is because heating that much water that quickly requires a massive huge amount of current.
A decent power shower with a good hot water feed beats an electric shower every time
15 January 2014, 08:50 PM
#12
I have a Watermill Osprey II - it doesn't heat water as said, it is on the way out. Rather than rebuild it, I'd love hot water on demand, to achieve this, if possible I want a shower that:
A: doesn't need mains pressure
B: will heat the water up
My current one works off a 5amp plug, one that heats water up needs a beefier cable as I understand it, this is what i was referring too as a power shower, if that's incorrect then apologies for that!
A: doesn't need mains pressure
B: will heat the water up
My current one works off a 5amp plug, one that heats water up needs a beefier cable as I understand it, this is what i was referring too as a power shower, if that's incorrect then apologies for that!
15 January 2014, 09:09 PM
#13
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I have a Watermill Osprey II - it doesn't heat water as said, it is on the way out. Rather than rebuild it, I'd love hot water on demand, to achieve this, if possible I want a shower that:
A: doesn't need mains pressure
B: will heat the water up
My current one works off a 5amp plug, one that heats water up needs a beefier cable as I understand it, this is what i was referring too as a power shower, if that's incorrect then apologies for that!
A: doesn't need mains pressure
B: will heat the water up
My current one works off a 5amp plug, one that heats water up needs a beefier cable as I understand it, this is what i was referring too as a power shower, if that's incorrect then apologies for that!
Putting in an electric shower means you will be paying twice to heat the cold water & as people have said a power shower will out perform an electric shower.
15 January 2014, 09:10 PM
#14
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What you have is a power shower. What most people call an electric shower is a rather poor comparison, typically about 9.5kW with a fat cable you could hang from which feels more like three straightened coat hangers together and has typically a >=40A circuit breaker but still has rubbish flow.
You are changing you car for a three wheeler and sticking a Porsche badge on it if you go this route, strongly suggest have your present arrangement repaired/renewed and save yourself a world of hassle and disappointment.
You are changing you car for a three wheeler and sticking a Porsche badge on it if you go this route, strongly suggest have your present arrangement repaired/renewed and save yourself a world of hassle and disappointment.
Last edited by john banks; 15 January 2014 at 09:12 PM.
15 January 2014, 09:37 PM
#15
I have both types , an electric shower is handy in the summer when the heating hasn't warmed the water , the shower piped off the hot water is good in the winter when the water is warm anyway (may aswell use it)
Remember if your current power shower relies on your hot water , and you have to put your immersion on , there is still an element heating the water so may not make much difference energy wise compared to a new "electric" shower. Though I am not sure how they compare in the energy use TBH
Remember if your current power shower relies on your hot water , and you have to put your immersion on , there is still an element heating the water so may not make much difference energy wise compared to a new "electric" shower. Though I am not sure how they compare in the energy use TBH
15 January 2014, 09:44 PM
#18
when the tank in the airing cupboard isn't enough for more than one shower or hot water has been depleted - i find myself waiting an hour or so before being able to use it. This is why I hanker after a shower unit that will be able to keep on giving hot water
15 January 2014, 09:44 PM
#19
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What you have is a power shower. What most people call an electric shower is a rather poor comparison, typically about 9.5kW with a fat cable you could hang from which feels more like three straightened coat hangers together and has typically a >=40A circuit breaker but still has rubbish flow.
You are changing you car for a three wheeler and sticking a Porsche badge on it if you go this route, strongly suggest have your present arrangement repaired/renewed and save yourself a world of hassle and disappointment.
You are changing you car for a three wheeler and sticking a Porsche badge on it if you go this route, strongly suggest have your present arrangement repaired/renewed and save yourself a world of hassle and disappointment.
Yup. I think the maximum flow through a 10kw electric shower is about 5l/min.
15 January 2014, 10:18 PM
#20
yes it can, as long as it's in a 'safe zone', in earthed steel conduit or more than 50mm below the surface of the wall
of course it can be run horizontally, how else could you install a cable in a house? under downstairs floor (supported where possible or laid on the ground), above ceiling/under floor, just drill joist's near centre, leaving a minimum of 50mm above and below and clipped where necessary. or through the loft, cable should run vertical through insulation, horizontally across timbers and vertically through insulation
you could run it external with either SWA cable or using 10mm Twin and Earth in 25mm conduit to protect the cable
have you got RCD on your consumer unit? if not you will need a separate RCD unit
and yes, I am an electrician
of course it can be run horizontally, how else could you install a cable in a house? under downstairs floor (supported where possible or laid on the ground), above ceiling/under floor, just drill joist's near centre, leaving a minimum of 50mm above and below and clipped where necessary. or through the loft, cable should run vertical through insulation, horizontally across timbers and vertically through insulation
you could run it external with either SWA cable or using 10mm Twin and Earth in 25mm conduit to protect the cable
have you got RCD on your consumer unit? if not you will need a separate RCD unit
and yes, I am an electrician
Last edited by BoozyDave; 15 January 2014 at 10:19 PM.
15 January 2014, 10:30 PM
#21
thanks BoozyDave
the fusebox under the stairs has pop out fuses rather than a modern consumer unit, in the ground floor bedroom which was originally a garage, is an RCD box (i think) that is where the front out door lighting runs from.
most of downstairs is concrete floors beyond carpet, or tiled.
the fusebox under the stairs has pop out fuses rather than a modern consumer unit, in the ground floor bedroom which was originally a garage, is an RCD box (i think) that is where the front out door lighting runs from.
most of downstairs is concrete floors beyond carpet, or tiled.
Last edited by riiidaa; 15 January 2014 at 10:32 PM.
15 January 2014, 10:51 PM
#22
The central heating only needed 12kilowatts!
The kilowatt rating to heat water on demand with gas is not really any different to that of direct electric...you need a lot of kilowatts for decent flow rates. And that's where electric heated showers fail miserably... Even against a good gravity stored system
No on demand electrically heated shower exists that can heat water at the flow rate you'd get from a pumped stored water system or a high output (28kw+) combi boiler.
Cost of running one is no cheaper - so long as pipes and tank are well lagged and the timer and temp controls are set and working properly.
I currently have a shower capable of 40litres a minute (via a unvented hot water tank) not intentional - just over did the spec a little
it'll run out a 300 litre tank of hot water in 15 minutes the main reason for this was the shower head was designed for a gravity system, so has very little restriction therefore when boosted by mains pressure ( or a booster pump -in the OPs case) it flows too much water and depletes the hot water store too quickly - the answer is to ensure the shower head matches the flow and pressure, so you get a good shower without running out of hot water.
Last edited by ALi-B; 15 January 2014 at 10:59 PM.
16 January 2014, 06:29 AM
#23
yes it can, as long as it's in a 'safe zone', in earthed steel conduit or more than 50mm below the surface of the wall
of course it can be run horizontally, how else could you install a cable in a house? under downstairs floor (supported where possible or laid on the ground), above ceiling/under floor, just drill joist's near centre, leaving a minimum of 50mm above and below and clipped where necessary. or through the loft, cable should run vertical through insulation, horizontally across timbers and vertically through insulation
you could run it external with either SWA cable or using 10mm Twin and Earth in 25mm conduit to protect the cable
have you got RCD on your consumer unit? if not you will need a separate RCD unit
and yes, I am an electrician
of course it can be run horizontally, how else could you install a cable in a house? under downstairs floor (supported where possible or laid on the ground), above ceiling/under floor, just drill joist's near centre, leaving a minimum of 50mm above and below and clipped where necessary. or through the loft, cable should run vertical through insulation, horizontally across timbers and vertically through insulation
you could run it external with either SWA cable or using 10mm Twin and Earth in 25mm conduit to protect the cable
have you got RCD on your consumer unit? if not you will need a separate RCD unit
and yes, I am an electrician
I was keeping it simple mate. I assume that is what his dad was referring to with regards horizontal wiring or he himself picked it up wrong , also I doubt he will be galv piping it ! And good luck burying the cable 50mm deep , there will be no wall left.
Last edited by CharlySkunkWeed; 16 January 2014 at 06:42 AM.
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16 January 2014, 11:23 AM
#26
"POWER Shower": one that runs off PUMPED water from a tank or boiler.
"ELECTRIC shower": one that takes mains cold water at mains pressure and heats it electrically, but does NOT pump in any way.
If I'm not mistaken, you have the first of these?
And the pumps do NOT require massive heavy duty cabling, they take a maximum of about 500W, so can be run off a ring main.
16 January 2014, 05:27 PM
#27
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The crazy thing with expensively putting in a fat cable for an electric shower in this situation is that if you reduced the flow of the power shower to match the trickle from the electric shower, you could probably use it for about 30 minutes on a 210 litre tank.
Having two oil boilers, one combi, one conventional, with their own oil tanks, I notice the seasonal variation from heating hot water vs heating spaces. With the conventional system with a 210 litre tank, there is negligible oil use through the summer. I don't see this a reason to consider an electric shower, and am in no hurry to change the conventional boiler for a combi either.
Having two oil boilers, one combi, one conventional, with their own oil tanks, I notice the seasonal variation from heating hot water vs heating spaces. With the conventional system with a 210 litre tank, there is negligible oil use through the summer. I don't see this a reason to consider an electric shower, and am in no hurry to change the conventional boiler for a combi either.
16 January 2014, 05:46 PM
#28
ok, so i have a power shower (confirmed), and was mistaken - sorry Busterbulldog
consensus seems to be that the setup already installed is better than an electric shower that would heat the water.
the watermill osprey II 4500t allegedly pushes out 12l/per min but as i said it is noisy and shower doctor who seem to have bought all remaining parts for it don't have any replacement pumps
consensus seems to be that the setup already installed is better than an electric shower that would heat the water.
the watermill osprey II 4500t allegedly pushes out 12l/per min but as i said it is noisy and shower doctor who seem to have bought all remaining parts for it don't have any replacement pumps
17 January 2014, 12:27 PM
#30
ok, so i have a power shower (confirmed), and was mistaken - sorry Busterbulldog
consensus seems to be that the setup already installed is better than an electric shower that would heat the water.
the watermill osprey II 4500t allegedly pushes out 12l/per min but as i said it is noisy and shower doctor who seem to have bought all remaining parts for it don't have any replacement pumps
consensus seems to be that the setup already installed is better than an electric shower that would heat the water.
the watermill osprey II 4500t allegedly pushes out 12l/per min but as i said it is noisy and shower doctor who seem to have bought all remaining parts for it don't have any replacement pumps
http://www.snhtradecentre.co.uk/plum...FQQGwwodwSQAfw
Is your hot tank fitted with one of these, to avoid cavitation?: http://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander...der-22mm/76906
That does cause noise and can damage the pump.