legb4rsk

I was going to post over Christmas regarding this issue but now this story about a father & son drowning in a car has prompted me to ask the question.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-25703054

My original post was about the weather & flooding causing chaos my sisters car (Jaguar) being stranded in 2 feet of water on her way home from work.The car disabled itself & she was able to get out.The car would not re-start & the electronic hand-brake locked on making it difficult to recover.Also the boot with some christmas presents in would not open.

There was also another car stuck and an old chap with a week old Volvo who also stalled in the flood & he could not open the doors or the windows.The fire brigade had to break the window of his new car to get him out.

I am just concerned that this may have been a factor in the terrible story of the father & son.

I believe that in older cars the electric windows,lights etc still worked for a while even if the car was completely submerged.

I don't know the solution but it seems to be a nightmare senario that should be looked into.

David_Dickson

The maximum safe wading depth for most cars is waaaay shallower than most people realise - even my freelander is only rated to cross something like 40cm of water depth. Yes, if you keep your momentum up you can create a bow-wave that prevents the engine bay filling in deeper water, but the instant you slow or stall, its game over.

If you are stranded in a car, unless you have a lifehammer or similar, its pretty much impossible to break car windows from the inside by hitting them with anything you might have to hand. Pull off a headrest and slip one of the metal bars down the gap between the glass and the door, forcing it past the rubber. Then pull downwards on the headrest and the leverage of the bar against the bottom of the glass will break it with minimal effort.

Lydia72

I watched a programme a couple of years ago about extreme flooding. It featured a couple who had tried to wade through some shallow river or something in their Range Rover, anyway they had phoned the emergency services and were told to immediately open their windows before the electrics shorted. That had never occurred to me before, that I might become trapped in the car, so the next day I bought a life-hammer. Hopefully I'll never need it but it was only £14 and has a seat-belt cutter plus torch, so I like knowing it's there.

legb4rsk

The escape hammer/cutter/torch is a good idea.Given that manufacturers must know about these problems should they be fitted as standard?
My old 3-series BMW had a re-chargeable torch that fitted into a charger in the glove box so was always ready for use.I thought this was one of the best accessories ever fitted to a car.Something similar could be used but be within easy access of the driver.

g7prs

iTrader: (5)

The guy in the link was a former user on here. His user name was grovit on various car forms.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Its a point; Most of the major devices on cars are now electronically controlled;

The steering lock
The handbrake
The parking brake (if automatic)
The windows
The door locks and deadlocks
The boot opening latch (not a lock)

Not to forget the Brake assist, throttle and many more systems.

The problem is compounded that these devices aren't directly driven electrically via switch or relay anymore, if they were they'd still work underwater (albeit not very well). These days they are driven electronically - A transistor powers the motor or solonoid. A protection circuit exists to cut power if it shorts, overloads and even when it becomes open circuit (as many people find out who fit LED bulbs without bias resistors to cars with bulb failure monitoring). The signals to operate the device comes via the VAN bus or CAN bus which is a two wire communication network, if that shorts out and stops communicating, then lots of stuff just stops working, for example a remote window switch can't talk to the window motor on the other door.


Now manufacturers are looking at drive by wire braking system to entirely replace the existing assisted hydraulic system. Cars can already brake completely on their own without the driver doing anything via remotely actuating the hydraulics. Now they want to remove the hydraulics link to the driver altogether..the only part bar the steering that the driver still has semi-direct control of.

I say semi-driect as I have driven a car with a ABS fault where it removed ALL braking effort when doing an emergency stop...the system overrided my input. Yeah that situation would require new pants and a interior valet.

So as you can tell I think networked wired communication to actuate safety critical components is a bad thing when it goes wrong; Manufacturers are aware of it, but maybe not enough...for example they slightest sniff of resitance change on a airbag circuit will disable the system (fail safe - disabled airbag is better than one going off when you are driving)...So how do they plan to fail-safe drive-by-wire-brakes? Just jam the brakes on full? No thanks!

tony de wonderful

My clio is built like a coke can so I'm pretty sure I could kick out the side windows. I don't have a hammer but have a big maglite which could smash a window.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Spare wheel-brace under the front passenger seat, sorted.

legb4rsk

That's fine for a hulking great brute like you.
What about old,frail,disabled drivers.This doesn't bear thinking about but if you have a car full,your wife & kids for example you would have to 'enable' an escape route for all of the occupants.

legb4rsk

Ali-B,you have the problem in a nutshell.Modern cars are collection of micro-processor controlled servo systems with a low voltage logic/control bus.Water will kill these components.
It just seems odd that we appear to have gone backwards as an old car with 12v electro-mechanical systems is inherently safer when immersed in water.

David_Dickson

I would place a moderate bet that despite what people here think, I very much doubt they could break a car window from the inside with a Maglite or a wheel brace. Its a hell of a lot harder to smash one than you would imagine - An automatic centre punch can do it, but the force of a blunt object like a wrench or even a hammer head very often is not enough to break a vehicle window.


Doing that from the inside? nope.




Like I said - use leverage.....

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

There is a simple technique to break a car window using much less force than you would think. Take a spark plug and break up the ceramic insulator. Use whatever method you like to propel this towards your window, the glass will break.

It's a known technique used by burglars and thieves to almost silently break a window.

dpb

Twenty years time it won't be worth having a car, to drive

All part of the masterplan

dpb

What's a spark plug.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Aim in the corner too.

The centre of the window has the most 'elastic' deflection/give in it.

ScoobyWon't

If the water is deep enough to be half way up a duck, don't try to drive through it.

legb4rsk

Not very effective if you are upside down in a river.
I am thinking about solutions to electronic security systems locking doors & windows in an emergency situation and people of varying abilities being able to exit the vehicle
in a simple & timely manner.

Lydia72

I watched Cop Land yesterday, Mr Stallone used his ear/ head to bash his way out.

CrisPDuk

From the front seat, feet on the windscreen, push the top corner

Or simply, keep a spring loaded centre-punch in the car

David_Dickson

That doesnt work in real life.....


If by some chance he wasnt brain damaged before he started, he probably was by the end.

Lydia72

No, it didn't work quite that well in the film either; became deaf, couldn't join the rozzers, didn't get the woman, ends up a fat alky. Think I'll stick with my life-hammer

hodgy0_2

what is it about the yanks and headbutting


he is NOT OK!!

riiidaa

iTrader: (2)

riiidaa

iTrader: (2)

LDNSTi

Interesting thread this. Important to note that not all scoobs have headrests. My new age certainly doesnt have any. Its all one piece seats. I like the life hammer idea if im honest.

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

I actually did put a window in under pressure a long time ago.
I was trapped in a MK3 golf VR6 upside down and it looked like it was about to go up in flames
So I side kicked out the passenger window - which was the only way out.

I am not sure I could do that today. I was late 20s at the time and had a punch harder than being hit by a train. I am now coming up for 48....and not quite what I was

I think the other problem is, once in water the water pressure will stop you putting any window in. If you can drop the windows even to degree once the car hits the water before it starts to sink that would be the aim.

However. In the heat of the moment fit may be difficult to do it and all the mention of modern electrics packing up nearly instantly is scary.