tony de wonderful

You couldn't make this up. They are going to buy the significantly less capable V/S-TOL F-35B instead of the F-35C as this means they don't have to add the CATOBAR system to the carriers, instead they just need a ski ramp.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...carrier-u-turn

It's funny as the new estimate for CATOBAR fit is £2b which is four times the previous estimate of £400m. Guess who does the estimates? BAE. Guess who stands to gain more from the purchase of the F-35B because they are a sub-contractor? BAE?

Yet another example of our dysfunctional defense procurement process.

So we end up having to buy more expensive planes and more of them, which cost more to maintain, and are said to have 1/3 less capability but I read more like 1/4 of the loiter time.

Our carriers then have no ability to launch air-to-air refueling aircraft and no ability to launch pressurised AWACS/electronic countermeasure aircraft. Also no ability to launch any future drone/UAV systems.

It's utterly stupid.

An0n0m0us

I thought this was going to be a youtube vid of a carrier doing a u-turn...

So these are going to be the replacements for the Harrier fleet then being STOVL?

tony de wonderful

Yes but there is nothing good about STOVL save for a couple of minor things such as ability to deploy from makeshift runways. They have less range and payload.

The who idea of the sea harrier originally was the ability to use it from our new smaller and cheaper carriers which were not big enough to have steam catapults, so made do with a ramp and thru-deck.

Now we have 65,000 tons carriers planned with enough room for a diagonal runway and one a short one at the front equipped with CATOBAR, what do we do? We put a thru-deck on and STOVL aircraft, thus finding a solution to a technical problem which never existed.

Ant

You missed its going to cost £100m for this u turn

mach

at least BAE is a british company!not only that but how much money do you think they are makeing from F35 sales(answer:-nowhere near as much as the americans).the goverment make the decicions and BAE charges accordingly not their fault if the goverment has no clue and won't listen to what their forces actually want/need.they have to put penalty clause charges into a contract for when the customer inevatably changes their minds half way through and goes in a totaly different direction so all the R&D to that point is wasted and not paid for,then more work is done and not paid for, as i understand it china's building cheap carriers and "advanced" aircraft would you like them flying around in the sky's above(not if you've got any sense!!!)

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

I think you'll find that BAE is more American than British matey.
That's from a friend of mine that works for them.

mach

one better i am one of those mate's got an f35 left hand engine bay door on my bench for testing

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

One of the other worries is that the aussies have been thinking about buying the F-35 and in a red flag exercise against SU variants they were blasted out of the sky. In fact, their assessment of the F-35 against SU craft was that the F35 was utterly useless....

mach

could be worse it could be that french rubbish that india are buying

mach

the aircraft itself is very good it's main problem is the need for more advanced avionic packages(pilot can't fly it without computer input),my personal take on it is it was released a year too early but as per the american way of R&D though it's get it in service and we'll sort it then but due to unrealistic time scale promises and an ageing american fleet it's been pressed into production(pretty sure american goverment needed a boost closely followed by our lot).our goverment should have kept harrier in service for anothe 5 years while all the limitations are ironed out if you look at typhoon it was being worked on in a R&D sense for 15 years prior to going on sale(during the height of tornado manufacture we thought it was a waste of time as tornado was the best thing since sliced bread)so had far less problems and limitation when placed in service.

legb4rsk

Did I not see a programme that showed most of the people running these defence supply companies are ex-Government procurement bods.

Jobs for the boys.As usual.

mach

don't get me started with the managers etc. running this place(got degree's etc. but just no idea of the real world,wouldn't pay em in washers ) and some of the other companies with comercial ties, the money and blatant nepatism/a**e kissers is beyond belief i've been here 25 years and to say it's going to pot is a bit of an understatement,loads of old school engineers have taken their money and left only to be replaced by know-it-all planks.

tony de wonderful

I think the Aussies are buying F/A 18's off the shelf. These are about a 1/5th the price of an F-35. It makes a lot of sense I think to go this route.

tony de wonderful

Yeah they said £39m so far in design work. How the hell can it cost that much?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

What's an SU variant?

mach

Yeah they said £39m so far in design work. How the hell can it cost that much?

these things aren't like your usual bungalow can't just knock down a breeze block wall and move a few wires and pipes.if you think about multi level steel decks and walls everything's got to fit with room for men to move around,as the ship progress it's build(days and nights)you can't just stop mid job and rip it all out coz some MP changes what they want you then have to do a complete re-design around what is now in the way.easier and cheaper to build something from the ground up the knock about what you all-ready have.the design departments aren't a couple of fella's sat at computers it involves hundreds of people working on different sections.£39 million is soon eaten up when you've got 90k employees world wide.

astraboy

Even if the VSTOL variant is slower and less capable than the catapult launched version, not to mention anything it might go up against, I seem to remember this country going to war in 1982 with a similar disadvantage and not doing so badly.

And look on the bright side, at least airshows will be more interesting!
Astraboy.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Sukhoi based aircraft starting with the Su-27 and going on through Su-30, Su-33, Su-34, Su-35, Su-37.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Now that seems to be a sensible option. If the F/A 18 is good enough for the American carrier force, it would probably be good enough for us too. Not to mention that being cheaper it would mean we could afford to have a good number of them. Why we insist on going down the route of buying something that does not have a proven track record AND means we cannot launch other types of aircraft (as we have no cats and traps) I just don't know

tony de wonderful

It's possible still to father a child with one ball astraboy but its no reason to cut one off.

DCI Gene Hunt

Clearly your friend isn't well connected then

DCI Gene Hunt

You are an ill informed and as such are spouting absolute untruths... you have no concept of the defence business or how military equipment, systems or services are procured...

DCI Gene Hunt

If you dislike it so much, leave.... take the current HR1 as an opportunity

tony de wonderful

That's what I am on about now the whole program depends on some planes which nobody knows how much they will cost, if they will work, or when they will be delivered. Now I know this sort of uncertainty exists with all cutting edge military programs but just from a risk management pov surely the CATOBAR makes sense? I know it has suddenly shot up in cost from £400 million to £2b and so are even saying £5b, something seems amiss here. This could be an off the shelf product.

DCI Gene Hunt

Where on earth are you getting these costs from

tony de wonderful

teh interweb.

Anyway £2b was used by the gov the other day.

mach

the reason i didn't take the HR1 not that it's any of your buisness is i am a disabled worker who doesn't want to claim off the state, BAE have been great to me and helped me more than anyother company out there.i'm an aircraft engineer by trade and when i became unable to contiue working on the aircraft they re-trained me and am now an ultrasonic engineer a job in demand so i wasn't even allowed to apply for the HR1.i like my job just don't like the way the management are trying to move the job(more about ticking boxes and drawing graphs than actually getting the work out the door).as for no idea about having no "concept" of the system my wife is PA to a lead director on" the board" and as such is privy to alot of sensative information,i know the procurement avenue and it's no worse than any other country and a hell of a lot more ethical than most.

DCI Gene Hunt

You're either brave or stupid to infer that your wife is discussing sensitive, even potentially restricted (even secret), information with you.

You are completely naive in the way you want to get "stuff out of a door" without wanting to subscribe to process and management control systems. To be fair you're probably a nice bloke, just not very switched on.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

For us the CATOBAR is not an off the shelf product as we are not using a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. Nuclear power makes use of a steam turbine, which in turn can power steam powered catapults. This is the normal way of doing things.

However, since we are going diesel electric (I think) and definitely have no steam on ship, we have to come up with another way of launching aircraft. I believe they were thinking of using a magnetic launch system similar in concept to the maglev systems for trains. However, this has never been done before, so the costs are unknown.

I think a better option is the SU-32, that uses a ski ramp to take off, no catapult assistance required. Its also not a VTOL aircraft, rather a "proper" fighter that lands using an arrester wire.

mach

"You are completely naive in the way you want to get "stuff out of a door" without wanting to subscribe to process and management control systems. To be fair you're probably a nice bloke, just not very switched on."

8 "O levels,1 HND in aeronautical engineering,2 teaching quals and a level 3 in ultrasonic engineering and" just not very switched on" it's a wonder i can put one foot infront of the other really! thank you for the nice bloke coment though that's greatly appreiciated