David Starkey's comments on Newsnight.
13 August 2011, 10:24 AM
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David Starkey's comments on Newsnight.
Guardian Article
I dunno if anyone watched it, but he is getting a lot of criticism for his comments saying "the problem is that the whites have become black".
He was basically saying that white youths had bought into 'black culture' from the Caribbean which is "A particular sort of violent destructive, nihilistic gangster culture".
I find it strange he gets slammed for using this term 'black culture', and called a racist when the left permit 'black community' leaders, 'black music festivals' etc. Yes his 'black culture' is a construct of sorts and not a monoculture but then what constructs are not?
He's basically identified a cultural trend and whilst the language we use to describe it may not be wholly satisfactory it is a trend nonetheless.
I dunno if anyone watched it, but he is getting a lot of criticism for his comments saying "the problem is that the whites have become black".
He was basically saying that white youths had bought into 'black culture' from the Caribbean which is "A particular sort of violent destructive, nihilistic gangster culture".
I find it strange he gets slammed for using this term 'black culture', and called a racist when the left permit 'black community' leaders, 'black music festivals' etc. Yes his 'black culture' is a construct of sorts and not a monoculture but then what constructs are not?
He's basically identified a cultural trend and whilst the language we use to describe it may not be wholly satisfactory it is a trend nonetheless.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 13 August 2011 at 10:25 AM.
13 August 2011, 10:47 AM
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He was about right in what he said but he must have enough sense to appreciate that he is stepping into dangerous territory and his remarks will be misconstrued even my Miss Paxman (Emily?).
And I still think he is a prat anyway
dl
And I still think he is a prat anyway
dl
13 August 2011, 11:02 AM
#5
I rate the man for having the b@lls to say what a lot of people are thinking.
Yes it might not be PC, yes it might be viewed as being racist but we need more of these people - calling a spade a spade.
Nothing more annoying than seeing white and asian kids buying into this whole hip-hop gangster culture - wearing their jeans halfway down their ****, using pattoir (spelling??) and thinking it's cool to be a pimp and a gangster! Makes my **** boil!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - ask an asian kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he'll say doctor, engineer etc - ask the same to a black kid and he'll say gangster!
I had a debate with somebody on Facebook of all places the other day who refused to believe the riots were down to race - for me, yes they were. Considering blacks only make up a fraction of our society it was strange how a large degree of the rioters were black! The 'community leaders' need to accept there are inherent issues within their society rather than blame it on police, disaffection, no jobs etc etc.
Rant over
Yes it might not be PC, yes it might be viewed as being racist but we need more of these people - calling a spade a spade.
Nothing more annoying than seeing white and asian kids buying into this whole hip-hop gangster culture - wearing their jeans halfway down their ****, using pattoir (spelling??) and thinking it's cool to be a pimp and a gangster! Makes my **** boil!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - ask an asian kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he'll say doctor, engineer etc - ask the same to a black kid and he'll say gangster!
I had a debate with somebody on Facebook of all places the other day who refused to believe the riots were down to race - for me, yes they were. Considering blacks only make up a fraction of our society it was strange how a large degree of the rioters were black! The 'community leaders' need to accept there are inherent issues within their society rather than blame it on police, disaffection, no jobs etc etc.
Rant over
13 August 2011, 11:08 AM
#6
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Well done that man. Why criticise some one for saying what he did. If a person is white, he's white. If a person is black, he's black! He's not goingt to say 'Red'' or 'Green'' is he. And yes, a load of people won't like it. But tough **** in my book! If you don't like it then **** off.
They're lucky it was not me making the comments
They're lucky it was not me making the comments
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 13 August 2011 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Newsnight's loss I guess Will. :-) Sorry, but the N word, as Chris Rock once said, has got to go!
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13 August 2011, 11:19 AM
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13 August 2011, 12:02 PM
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...n-black-men.do
The writing is on the wall, the PC brigade needs to stop playing the race card and really look at the problem, the root causes. Of course not all black people are criminals but when the problem is rooted in your society you need to deal with...
My mother is 90 this week, she lives in Croydon. She said the last time London was in this state with burning buildings and terror/panic on the streets was during the blitz!
She may be old but she has a point!
The writing is on the wall, the PC brigade needs to stop playing the race card and really look at the problem, the root causes. Of course not all black people are criminals but when the problem is rooted in your society you need to deal with...
My mother is 90 this week, she lives in Croydon. She said the last time London was in this state with burning buildings and terror/panic on the streets was during the blitz!
She may be old but she has a point!
Last edited by The Zohan; 13 August 2011 at 12:04 PM.
13 August 2011, 12:10 PM
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Didn't see Starkey's comments but have respect for a chap who is an astute historian (what better way to analyse the current state of play than by having a wealth of knowledge as to what's gone on before).
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
13 August 2011, 12:14 PM
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Didn't see Starkey's comments but have respect for a chap who is an astute historian (what better way to analyse the current state of play than by having a wealth of knowledge as to what's gone on before).
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
13 August 2011, 12:33 PM
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Didn't see Starkey's comments but have respect for a chap who is an astute historian (what better way to analyse the current state of play than by having a wealth of knowledge as to what's gone on before).
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
Anyway, from the OP's comments, sounds fair enough.
In my book, it's not good to have a blanket hatred for any one race, but hating gang culture and selfish thuggery is fair enough.
13 August 2011, 01:23 PM
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Agree pretty much with Starkey, even if it's not "PC" nowadays to draw distinctions between black and white culture.
One point from the black author lass I agreed with - the reference to the overly materialistic culture we have created (she forgot to mention the fact that the thugs involved felt it was fine to smash a shop window and take what they wanted!). Having said that, surely other European cultures must have the same "materialistic" demands? What's different about UK culture?
13 August 2011, 02:50 PM
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I think Dr. Starkey got it absolutely wrong.
The disgraceful acts that we witnessed recently in London and other cities can easily be recreated in predominantly Black society, it is not a black and white thing; it is mainly criminals trying to reap from where they did not sow.
The disgraceful acts that we witnessed recently in London and other cities can easily be recreated in predominantly Black society, it is not a black and white thing; it is mainly criminals trying to reap from where they did not sow.
Last edited by henrybonds; 13 August 2011 at 02:51 PM.
14 August 2011, 08:10 AM
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I can't believe how much support there is for Starkey's words - virtually every mainstream forum or comments page I've read is dominated by users that agree with him. I really thought people had been programmed to auto-repulse but, it seems not, there is hope. People can actually see.
14 August 2011, 09:37 AM
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Theres plenty white rap/ganster inspired artists
also tarring every black person with the same brush is never going to earn him any favours - and there are actually blacks who dont eminate from the caribbean around, funnily enough
also tarring every black person with the same brush is never going to earn him any favours - and there are actually blacks who dont eminate from the caribbean around, funnily enough
Last edited by dpb; 14 August 2011 at 09:39 AM.
14 August 2011, 09:42 AM
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That was his point. 'Black culture' (or at least a part of it) has assimilated local white people.
I never heard him say all black people were gangsters?
I never heard him say all black people were gangsters?
14 August 2011, 09:57 AM
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He's an absolute clown and I don't think many people take him seriously. He was saying the other day how these events are politically motivated and I think most people just pointed and laughed like they did at Ken Livingstone, Darcus Howe and Harriet Harman. Why lower yourself? Are the left that frightened of years of isolation that they'll clutch at any straw, no matter how demeaning?
14 August 2011, 10:57 AM
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Mr. Starkey failed to clarify his remarks. If he had said "A certain section of black culture" he wouldn't have drawn so much far.
For what it's worth, Both starkey and the back women who was sitting next to him had a valid point. I agree with them both.
As for that pastey streak of **** sitting opposite, his pious PC pontification made me want to launch my screen through the window.
astraboy.
P.S. they need to stop talking over each other.
For what it's worth, Both starkey and the back women who was sitting next to him had a valid point. I agree with them both.
As for that pastey streak of **** sitting opposite, his pious PC pontification made me want to launch my screen through the window.
astraboy.
P.S. they need to stop talking over each other.
14 August 2011, 11:24 AM
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Mr. Starkey failed to clarify his remarks. If he had said "A certain section of black culture" he wouldn't have drawn so much far.
For what it's worth, Both starkey and the back women who was sitting next to him had a valid point. I agree with them both.
As for that pastey streak of **** sitting opposite, his pious PC pontification made me want to launch my screen through the window.
astraboy.
P.S. they need to stop talking over each other.
For what it's worth, Both starkey and the back women who was sitting next to him had a valid point. I agree with them both.
As for that pastey streak of **** sitting opposite, his pious PC pontification made me want to launch my screen through the window.
astraboy.
P.S. they need to stop talking over each other.
FWIW I think he was being deliberately provocative, but at least everyone is talking about what he said now.
It's funny than many forums would have banned him for what he said. I know the Guardian website comments section would have!
14 August 2011, 11:44 AM
#25
It isn't that the white kids have gone "Black", the Black kids are also doing it but happen to have the right skin colour to make it look authentic, Black people don't talk and dress like that as a rule, I have black colleagues, one I spoke to on the phone for ages before I met her, she just sounds like a posh white girl so I was kind of surprised a little when I met her when she wasn't white, I had a mental image of her but it was incorrect, no problem, just a different skin colour, just a person and after that it makes no difference to me.
I think Starkey was along the right lines but the implication is the whites need to quit it and speak the queens English but the Blacks are beyond help, nobody is born to talk like that, very few people are born with that limp they affect, expect perhaps people afflicted with Cerebral Palsy and I am guessing that they wouldn't limp if they had a choice. There will always be fashions but I cannot think of a single dafter one than having your trousers round your knees and you **** on show, you are not a prisoner and you are allowed a belt.
I think we have low expectations of young black males and to a certain extent I think it affects them and to a certain extent they adopt the image and also play on it a bit, bit of a defense thing going on there.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1756476-chri...s-black-people
I think Chris Rock did put it quite well in his stand up, it is perhaps a difficult one to broach as us white people are rightly very uncomfortable with the N word but I think he is correct to differentiate between your average Black person and those that adopt the "Black" Aesthetic and speech patterns, the point lost due to the use of the N word which is the social equivalent for most white people (those that don't live in the deep south) of a Gary Glitter T shirt at a Brownie camp.
This has all now festered and been allowed to become mainstream, even the BBC is at it, so desperate to be all street and hip there are black music channels, I remember one of them, the advert had a load of kids in an urban setting on BMX's and a black kid old makes a gun sign to the camera, like I am going to shoot you, how was that allowed ?
I think Starkey was along the right lines but the implication is the whites need to quit it and speak the queens English but the Blacks are beyond help, nobody is born to talk like that, very few people are born with that limp they affect, expect perhaps people afflicted with Cerebral Palsy and I am guessing that they wouldn't limp if they had a choice. There will always be fashions but I cannot think of a single dafter one than having your trousers round your knees and you **** on show, you are not a prisoner and you are allowed a belt.
I think we have low expectations of young black males and to a certain extent I think it affects them and to a certain extent they adopt the image and also play on it a bit, bit of a defense thing going on there.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1756476-chri...s-black-people
I think Chris Rock did put it quite well in his stand up, it is perhaps a difficult one to broach as us white people are rightly very uncomfortable with the N word but I think he is correct to differentiate between your average Black person and those that adopt the "Black" Aesthetic and speech patterns, the point lost due to the use of the N word which is the social equivalent for most white people (those that don't live in the deep south) of a Gary Glitter T shirt at a Brownie camp.
This has all now festered and been allowed to become mainstream, even the BBC is at it, so desperate to be all street and hip there are black music channels, I remember one of them, the advert had a load of kids in an urban setting on BMX's and a black kid old makes a gun sign to the camera, like I am going to shoot you, how was that allowed ?
14 August 2011, 11:49 AM
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It isn't that the white kids have gone "Black", the Black kids are also doing it but happen to have the right skin colour to make it look authentic, Black people don't talk and dress like that as a rule, I have black colleagues, one I spoke to on the phone for ages before I met her, she just sounds like a posh white girl so I was kind of surprised a little when I met her when she wasn't white, I had a mental image of her but it was incorrect, no problem, just a different skin colour, just a person and after that it makes no difference to me.
I think Starkey was along the right lines but the implication is the whites need to quit it and speak the queens English but the Blacks are beyond help, nobody is born to talk like that, very few people are born with that limp they affect, expect perhaps people afflicted with Cerebral Palsy and I am guessing that they wouldn't limp if they had a choice. There will always be fashions but I cannot think of a single dafter one than having your trousers round your knees and you **** on show, you are not a prisoner and you are allowed a belt.
I think we have low expectations of young black males and to a certain extent I think it affects them and to a certain extent they adopt the image and also play on it a bit, bit of a defense thing going on there.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1756476-chri...s-black-people
I think Chris Rock did put it quite well in his stand up, it is perhaps a difficult one to broach as us white people are rightly very uncomfortable with the N word but I think he is correct to differentiate between your average Black person and those that adopt the "Black" Aesthetic and speech patterns, the point lost due to the use of the N word which is the social equivalent for most white people (those that don't live in the deep south) of a Gary Glitter T shirt at a Brownie camp.
This has all now festered and been allowed to become mainstream, even the BBC is at it, so desperate to be all street and hip there are black music channels, I remember one of them, the advert had a load of kids in an urban setting on BMX's and a black kid old makes a gun sign to the camera, like I am going to shoot you, how was that allowed ?
I think Starkey was along the right lines but the implication is the whites need to quit it and speak the queens English but the Blacks are beyond help, nobody is born to talk like that, very few people are born with that limp they affect, expect perhaps people afflicted with Cerebral Palsy and I am guessing that they wouldn't limp if they had a choice. There will always be fashions but I cannot think of a single dafter one than having your trousers round your knees and you **** on show, you are not a prisoner and you are allowed a belt.
I think we have low expectations of young black males and to a certain extent I think it affects them and to a certain extent they adopt the image and also play on it a bit, bit of a defense thing going on there.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1756476-chri...s-black-people
I think Chris Rock did put it quite well in his stand up, it is perhaps a difficult one to broach as us white people are rightly very uncomfortable with the N word but I think he is correct to differentiate between your average Black person and those that adopt the "Black" Aesthetic and speech patterns, the point lost due to the use of the N word which is the social equivalent for most white people (those that don't live in the deep south) of a Gary Glitter T shirt at a Brownie camp.
This has all now festered and been allowed to become mainstream, even the BBC is at it, so desperate to be all street and hip there are black music channels, I remember one of them, the advert had a load of kids in an urban setting on BMX's and a black kid old makes a gun sign to the camera, like I am going to shoot you, how was that allowed ?
14 August 2011, 12:36 PM
#28
Eh, talk about a random reaction to a post ?
I only mentioned the US when talking about use on the N word, an off the cuff comment of where that word still gets an outing, noting about slavery or segregation, though I do think the culture does come from Jamaica via the US.
I don't get the fascination with slavery, it happened, but we cant do anything about it, nobody alive now can be held accountable, nobody alive has been a slave.
I only mentioned the US when talking about use on the N word, an off the cuff comment of where that word still gets an outing, noting about slavery or segregation, though I do think the culture does come from Jamaica via the US.
I don't get the fascination with slavery, it happened, but we cant do anything about it, nobody alive now can be held accountable, nobody alive has been a slave.
14 August 2011, 12:49 PM
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For far too long, white in this country have got this notion that black people are slaves or people suffering from the aftermath of slavery which is far from the truth. There are so many successful black middle class living the kind of lifestyle that an average white man would dream. The unfortunate thing is that, people like Dr. Starkey do not see these people as black; the blackness is applied only when there is a robbery, mugging or drug dealing involving black youths.
14 August 2011, 12:55 PM
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For far too long, white in this country have got this notion that black people are slaves or people suffering from the aftermath of slavery which is far from the truth. There are so many successful black middle class living the kind of lifestyle that an average white man would dream. The unfortunate thing is that, people like Dr. Starkey do not see these people as black; the blackness is applied only when there is a robbery, mugging or drug dealing involving black youths.