If I was a German citizen
21 July 2011, 09:19 AM
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If I was a German citizen
I might be saying "Sod Greece, I'm buggered if I want to pay more of my hard earned to try and get them out of the financial mess for which they have primarily themselves to blame. If they want to fiddle their taxes fine but don't expect me to pay for it".
Bear in mind that Germans are already still paying a Unification Tax.
Strikes me that Greece is beyond repair so as soon as Europe stops sending good money after bad the better. Yeah I've heard about the dire consequences of the Euro failing etc etc but I'd have thought the strong industrial countries, like Germany, will succeed even if they go back to Marks or trade in dollars.
What do you reckon?
d
Bear in mind that Germans are already still paying a Unification Tax.
Strikes me that Greece is beyond repair so as soon as Europe stops sending good money after bad the better. Yeah I've heard about the dire consequences of the Euro failing etc etc but I'd have thought the strong industrial countries, like Germany, will succeed even if they go back to Marks or trade in dollars.
What do you reckon?
d
21 July 2011, 09:25 AM
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My (limited layman's) understanding is that banks all over Europe (and indeed the world) are owed huge amounts of money by countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy and if the countries default then it could take the banks down causing a knock on effect in the other countries so it is every bodies interests to make it work - is this correct???
21 July 2011, 09:26 AM
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Most Germans do already think that.
It's only Merkel who's helping to keep the European dream alive. She and Sarkozy will outline details of their "pact" in Brussels today, but few people are convinced it will be a long-term solution. The less money they waste saving Greece, Portugal, possibly Italy, Spain, Ireland and even Belgium, the better. They tried, it didn't work.
It's only Merkel who's helping to keep the European dream alive. She and Sarkozy will outline details of their "pact" in Brussels today, but few people are convinced it will be a long-term solution. The less money they waste saving Greece, Portugal, possibly Italy, Spain, Ireland and even Belgium, the better. They tried, it didn't work.
21 July 2011, 09:48 AM
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Ive been living and working in Germany for a while now and income tax here is currently about 50% by the time the additions are added on. Im not speaking for the germans at all but my personal experience is that Germanys economy is one of the strongest in europe at the moment with a strengthening economy....maybe not where it needs to be im just not sure as im not an economist. I think for a country like this it would probably help to say sod it we will go alone again, but i dont know what that would do for the banking system worldwide.
Trouble with leaving the Euro is that I believe I read that there are hige penaulty clauses if a member leaves....this of course would have to be weighed up against the constant supporting of other EU members at the moment and probably for a while to come.
As said I await to be torn to shreads by someone who understands economics better than I.
Trouble with leaving the Euro is that I believe I read that there are hige penaulty clauses if a member leaves....this of course would have to be weighed up against the constant supporting of other EU members at the moment and probably for a while to come.
As said I await to be torn to shreads by someone who understands economics better than I.
21 July 2011, 10:00 AM
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My (limited layman's) understanding is that banks all over Europe (and indeed the world) are owed huge amounts of money by countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy and if the countries default then it could take the banks down causing a knock on effect in the other countries so it is every bodies interests to make it work - is this correct???
Yes, sort of. But "making" a system work that fundamentally cannot, isn't the answer. But this isn't just about economics, it's a political football, so decisions are being made with a wider agenda. The euro dream could be dismantled in an orderly fashion with relatively slight impact. But if it's left to the markets, if they don't have faith in the rescue plan, all hell could break loose, and then it would get ugly.
The worst outcome, in my opinion, is the imposition of a bank levy to pay for the rescue. EUR10bn per year for 5 years i heard touted. As of here and now it seems unlikely that this will be imposed, but it scares me that this was even considered an option.
I believe the Euro won't last for another 2 years, at least in its current form.
21 July 2011, 10:10 AM
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mbayley, Germany is indeed the powerhouse of Europe. And yes, it's unthinkable that Germany could unilaterally decide to leave the rest of the eurozone to fend for itself, that would have cataclysmic consequences, it just wouldn't happen, even though i bet a straw poll of the German population would show a huge majority in favour of leaving.
21 July 2011, 10:45 AM
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From what I've seen the EU 'project' has been pretty much doomed for 20 years...
It's been forced upon the people, most don't want it, and it wastes money in a frankly staggering way....
It's been forced upon the people, most don't want it, and it wastes money in a frankly staggering way....
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21 July 2011, 11:15 AM
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Ive been living and working in Germany for a while now and income tax here is currently about 50% by the time the additions are added on. Im not speaking for the germans at all but my personal experience is that Germanys economy is one of the strongest in europe at the moment with a strengthening economy....maybe not where it needs to be im just not sure as im not an economist. I think for a country like this it would probably help to say sod it we will go alone again, but i dont know what that would do for the banking system worldwide.
Trouble with leaving the Euro is that I believe I read that there are hige penaulty clauses if a member leaves....this of course would have to be weighed up against the constant supporting of other EU members at the moment and probably for a while to come.
As said I await to be torn to shreads by someone who understands economics better than I.
Trouble with leaving the Euro is that I believe I read that there are hige penaulty clauses if a member leaves....this of course would have to be weighed up against the constant supporting of other EU members at the moment and probably for a while to come.
As said I await to be torn to shreads by someone who understands economics better than I.
Anyone see Ed Bollox on Newsnight last night? "Cameron should be at the meeting leading the way and telling them how to handle it" Yeah right like they are going to take any notice of UK who had the sense to get out of this mess years ago.
Greece
Portugal Spain Italy Ireland?Then the Euro
dl
21 July 2011, 11:35 AM
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I agree with Boris that we should let Greece default.
The TV and news is full of clever economics peeps telling is that everything is 'too interconnected'....well they would say this sort of stuff because their job is to find complex solutions...
...but I think you can over-think it too much. The lenders to Greece must take a haircut for their poor investement, otherwise we seem to be in this absurd situation where the banks/investors say to the taxpayers that 'we must win rain or shine'...if we don't you are screwed. It's like an EXTORTION!
The TV and news is full of clever economics peeps telling is that everything is 'too interconnected'....well they would say this sort of stuff because their job is to find complex solutions...
...but I think you can over-think it too much. The lenders to Greece must take a haircut for their poor investement, otherwise we seem to be in this absurd situation where the banks/investors say to the taxpayers that 'we must win rain or shine'...if we don't you are screwed. It's like an EXTORTION!
21 July 2011, 11:35 AM
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I agree with Boris that we should let Greece default.
The TV and news is full of clever economics peeps telling is that everything is 'too interconnected'....well they would say this sort of stuff because their job is to find complex solutions...
...but I think you can over-think it too much. The lenders to Greece must take a haircut for their poor investement, otherwise we seem to be in this absurd situation where the banks/investors say to the taxpayers that 'we must win rain or shine'...if we don't you are screwed. It's like an EXTORTION!
The TV and news is full of clever economics peeps telling is that everything is 'too interconnected'....well they would say this sort of stuff because their job is to find complex solutions...
...but I think you can over-think it too much. The lenders to Greece must take a haircut for their poor investement, otherwise we seem to be in this absurd situation where the banks/investors say to the taxpayers that 'we must win rain or shine'...if we don't you are screwed. It's like an EXTORTION!
21 July 2011, 01:38 PM
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Could Greece not take out a short term loan until payday ? or consolidate all of their debt's into one easily affordable monthly payment ?
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21 July 2011, 01:45 PM
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21 July 2011, 01:58 PM
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21 July 2011, 05:09 PM
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I might be saying "Sod Greece, I'm buggered if I want to pay more of my hard earned to try and get them out of the financial mess for which they have primarily themselves to blame. If they want to fiddle their taxes fine but don't expect me to pay for it".
Bear in mind that Germans are already still paying a Unification Tax.
Strikes me that Greece is beyond repair so as soon as Europe stops sending good money after bad the better. Yeah I've heard about the dire consequences of the Euro failing etc etc but I'd have thought the strong industrial countries, like Germany, will succeed even if they go back to Marks or trade in dollars.
What do you reckon?
d
Bear in mind that Germans are already still paying a Unification Tax.
Strikes me that Greece is beyond repair so as soon as Europe stops sending good money after bad the better. Yeah I've heard about the dire consequences of the Euro failing etc etc but I'd have thought the strong industrial countries, like Germany, will succeed even if they go back to Marks or trade in dollars.
What do you reckon?
d
21 July 2011, 06:42 PM
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mbayley, Germany is indeed the powerhouse of Europe. And yes, it's unthinkable that Germany could unilaterally decide to leave the rest of the eurozone to fend for itself, that would have cataclysmic consequences, it just wouldn't happen, even though i bet a straw poll of the German population would show a huge majority in favour of leaving.
Last edited by bigsinky; 21 July 2011 at 06:44 PM.
21 July 2011, 06:53 PM
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My (limited layman's) understanding is that banks all over Europe (and indeed the world) are owed huge amounts of money by countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy and if the countries default then it could take the banks down causing a knock on effect in the other countries so it is every bodies interests to make it work - is this correct???
I'm sick of hearing about how 'interconnected' everything is these days, seems were told that banks (Lemans) and countries can no longer fail and the tax payer (you and me) should stump up to cover the losses of private investors and institutions.
Everything being 'interconnected' is just another way of saying the markets are doing a **** POOR job of managing risk, and it won't change either until the market get the message that the government won't save them through robbing the taxpayers.
It's an outrage to the libertarian what is happening. It looks like and is a massive wealth transfer.
21 July 2011, 06:54 PM
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21 July 2011, 07:05 PM
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My (limited layman's) understanding is that banks all over Europe (and indeed the world) are owed huge amounts of money by countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy and if the countries default then it could take the banks down causing a knock on effect in the other countries so it is every bodies interests to make it work - is this correct???
I'm sick of hearing about how 'interconnected' everything is these days, seems were told that banks (Lemans) and countries can no longer fail and the tax payer (you and me) should stump up to cover the losses of private investors and institutions.
Everything being 'interconnected' is just another way of saying the markets are doing a **** POOR job of managing/pricing risk, and it won't change either until the market get the message that the government won't save them through robbing the taxpayers.
It's an outrage to the libertarian what is happening. It looks like and is a massive wealth transfer.
21 July 2011, 07:12 PM
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Sure but we've had sovereign defaults in the past and the world didn't end!
I'm sick of hearing about how 'interconnected' everything is these days, seems were told that banks (Lemans) and countries can no longer fail and the tax payer (you and me) should stump up to cover the losses of private investors and institutions.
Everything being 'interconnected' is just another way of saying the markets are doing a **** POOR job of managing/pricing risk, and it won't change either until the market get the message that the government won't save them through robbing the taxpayers.
It's an outrage to the libertarian what is happening. It looks like and is a massive wealth transfer.
I'm sick of hearing about how 'interconnected' everything is these days, seems were told that banks (Lemans) and countries can no longer fail and the tax payer (you and me) should stump up to cover the losses of private investors and institutions.
Everything being 'interconnected' is just another way of saying the markets are doing a **** POOR job of managing/pricing risk, and it won't change either until the market get the message that the government won't save them through robbing the taxpayers.
It's an outrage to the libertarian what is happening. It looks like and is a massive wealth transfer.
21 July 2011, 08:14 PM
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I hope the Greeks drag the Krauts and the Frogs so far down the pan that they can't even glimpse the light from the u bend.
Unfortunately, because we don't have any politicians with ***** enough to tell them to take their USofE and stick it up their @rses, we'll end up down there with them
Oh well, suppose I'd better get learning Mandarin
Unfortunately, because we don't have any politicians with ***** enough to tell them to take their USofE and stick it up their @rses, we'll end up down there with them
Oh well, suppose I'd better get learning Mandarin
22 July 2011, 01:12 AM
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22 July 2011, 11:49 AM
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The Ruhr Valley is about 3 hours north of where they make Mercedes, which is about 2 hours north west of where they make BMWs
Oh yeah and they stopped using the Reichmark after the war! It was the Deutsch Mark before the Euro.
Last edited by Wurzel; 22 July 2011 at 12:30 PM.
22 July 2011, 12:36 PM
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Not wanting to burst your bubble but neither BMW or Mercedes are made in the Ruhr Valley ! Mercedes are made in Sindelfingen/Böblingen which is in the Neckar Valley down near Stuttgart and BMW are made in Munich.
The Ruhr Valley is about 3 hours north of where they make Mercedes, which is about 2 hours north west of where they make BMWs
Oh yeah and they stopped using the Reichmark after the war! It was the Deutsch Mark before the Euro.
The Ruhr Valley is about 3 hours north of where they make Mercedes, which is about 2 hours north west of where they make BMWs
Oh yeah and they stopped using the Reichmark after the war! It was the Deutsch Mark before the Euro.
does no one get comedic license anymore. my reference was about the pre world war 2 germany. them invading poland and building King Tiger tanks in the Ruhr heartland. Just isn't the same when you have to explain your attempts at humour
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22 July 2011, 12:52 PM
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22 July 2011, 01:37 PM
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