David Lock

"Most European nations would only contemplate action if there was a clear UN resolution, although the UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said "there have been occasions in the past when such a no-fly zone has had clear, legal, international justification, even without a Security Council resolution".


Now when have I heard that before?

dl

dpb

No wonder Gaddifi is travelling to work in a golf buggy !

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yep we just don't learn do we? Why are we in the thick of it again while Germany, France etc. take a back seat. We are f**king broke as a country yet the government goons can't wait to commit our money (that we haven't got) and military to another unwinnable war. Marvellous!!!

What amuses me is the way America and its allies seem interested in Libya and of course Iraq and Iran yet places like Burna, Zimbabwe, North Korea get completely ignored. Wonder why?

David Lock

Well I don't think even Bush woud have wanted to upset China and whilst I wish someone would shoot Mugabe that would upset the rest of black Africa. dl

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well he didn't seem to mind upsetting the Muslims so I think it has far more to do with oil than any fear of China or anyone else for that matter.

David Lock

Everyone should be frightened of China. It's slowly taking over the place and no one seems to be noticing!!

dl

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Time to rebuild the empire The Libyan desert would make a good prison for all the riff raff from the UK.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I have noticed, posted on here about it many years ago now, but why should we be frightened? How much worse can they be as the world's premier superpower than America?

cster

tony de wonderful

Do you use petrol/diesel or not, and are the goods you buy in the shops transported there with petrol/diesel?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

So why do America and the UK come to that dress it up as beng about the people, the good of the country etc. etc. when in fact it is all about the West's need for oil.

tony de wonderful

Is that the main gripe of the 'anti-war' crowd?

Would they be ok with intervention if it was stated as by the government as being to secure resources?

cster

Perhaps you can illuminate us all on this interesting question.
I for one would certainly love to hear your erudite and dare I say it, balanced opinion on the matter.
It has always been of profound interest to me why other countries don't spin their foreign policies thus - especially those countries fortunate enough to be blessed with progressive left wing government.
Up the Peoples Jamahiriya!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No of course not, but you seem to imply that our intervention is OK because we all need oil. If it was so OK then why do our governments dress it up as something else?

Gadaffi is right about one thing, this is Libya's issue and the West need to stay out of it!

SJ_Skyline

Killing foreigners and taking over countries for their wealth (in this case, oil) doesn't win votes with the home crowd no matter how you spin it.

tony de wonderful

But don't you moan about the petrol price? It's a fact that global trade requires global peace to be secured with military force. Without global trade we would be in poverty.

So the international community don't have any moral responsibility? Were you saying that Kosova was Serbia's issue?

Gadaffi is playing his anti-collonial card, it's the same rhetoric which has worked for him in the past.

SJ_Skyline

I don't know. Is it right to stand by and watch innocent people be slaughtered by their own government? You can draw similarities with Iraq, Rwanda, Kosovo, Darfur... The list sadly goes on and on. In some cases there was UN intervention to a greater or lesser extent, in others there wasn't. Innocent people were still killed regardless, did the cases where there was intervention make it better or worse?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

See SJ Skyline's post for your answer.

As for all this progressive left wing government crap what has that got to do with this discussion.?

tony de wonderful

A Kosovan would say it helped. Wasn't that NATO anyway?

...and with regards to the Balkans in the early 90's sure it helped.

GlesgaKiss

What gets me is that we're cutting back defense, getting rid of harriers etc, yet we're more than happy to go along with 'helping those wishing to remove Gaddafi', perhaps suggesting that America get involved, while it also has to shoulder the whole burden.

Other parts of Europe, and now the UK, have made it clear that defence is not a priority, yet the only reason we can take that attitude is because we know America will use its force to keep us all safe in the event that any western institutions come under attack. So taking a back seat is great when you've got that privilege.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I think if you look at the case of Iraq it's pretty obvious the place has been left in a perilous state althiough it is hard to say it is better or worse than before.

My worry about Libya is once again we seem all too keen to go charging in with no real plan as to what to do once we are there. Iraq and Afghanistan it seems have taught us nothing.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Whil I agree with some of your post I am not sure I see America as keeping us all safe, in fact their actions seem to have much the opposite affect to be frank.

GlesgaKiss

Well as much as people would probably prefer to disagree, America has kept us safe, and it's kept many parts of the world far from it safe too. Look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki - pretty horrific? But look at what Japan was doing at the time. There are far worse things than American power to be worried about, honestly; and there were far worse systems we could be living under today, and which other people could be living under today around the globe.

I think far too many people take what we've got for granted, and criticise the methods by which we've got it, without realising that they would hardly be able to even discuss these things if it hadn't been for them.

David Lock

Because there are so many of them (Chinese). 1.3b compared to 300m in the USA. And, given the chance, are happy to move out of China whereas Americans really want to stay at home and watch Superbowl. And China have an aggressive policy of nicking every bit of Western technology that they can with Chinese students flooding o/s universities. Give them 30 years and they'll be living next door to you.

As for USA's prime reason for foreign policy being to protect oil sources I think there is more to it than that. Yes of course oil plays a part but it's more about regional stability. And, to be fair to the Americans, I think there is a genuine wish to try and bring about just societies although they don't seem to be very good at it IIRC Vietnam wasn't about oil or their involvement in WW2 (and Afghanistan??).

But they leave themselves with some hard circles to square like their support for Israel trashing the Palestinians because of the strong USA Jewish lobby. I happen to be an Obama supporter but he seems pretty unpopular back home but I think that is because I don't fully understand the American psyche (even though I have lived in the damn place!).

dl

cster

To be fair, since at least 3/4 of the price of fuel is tax, is it not a little disingenuous to blame the price we pay at the pump on the price of crude oil?

cster

Thought that would have been obvious from my post. If not then don't worry about it!!*

*Apologies to you.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Its a shame that none of the Islamic nations can be trusted to go in and take a peace keeping role.

The extremist types complain about Western countries coming in to stop violence (and they do it by... er ... being violent) but unfortunately, no one else can actually do it!

Need to just roll over the whole place I reckon.

5t.

Leslie

How right you are!

Amazing how these fellows can talk around anything when they feel it is necessary!

Les

Leslie

Well we all have got that worked out just as you have!

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nope, the ME predominantly has tyrants at the helm of their countries and if not largely capitalist governments. The UK hasn't had a left wing government since the 70s, the US is inherently rght wing, non of the major European countires are left wing controlled..... so what's the relevance?