The Zohan

BBC News - Police accused of failures over anti-social behaviour

Not knocking the police on the front line, i see this as the senior career cops and the 'yes' men in charge.


Teenagers who beat 'courageous' father to death outside his home jailed for life - Crime, UK - The Independent
^^^^^Police and govt said that lessons would be learned from this thragedy

Yet this still happens
BBC News - Under fire Greater Manchester Police failed dead woman


Maybe it is time we voted in the top cops in each area instead of letting the old boy network decide who gets what.

Leslie

It just goes to show that a target driven society is fine for the managers who love to count up all the ticked boxes and are incidentally incapable of running a workforce in an efficient manner as far as getting a real job done.

Practically speaking, it drags a workforce down to doing everything to achieve the targets which means it causes them to lose sight of doing the required job in the best possible way.

Coppers seem to spend so much time achieving targets that they have not got the time to actually protect the public any more.

It all looks good on paper though!

Les

LC Geezer

Another part of the problem is that ASB has been labelled a low level crime. Plainly this isn't true as it is a crime that has a big impact on a large number of people.

And the final issue is the burden of proof. If police turn up, they get verbal from the offenders but hardly ever prosecute because there is often no clear evidence to present. Defence lawyers have become so weasly these days that it is incredibly hard to get a conviction for anything.

ScoobyWon't

If you need an example of the knee-jerk reaction that happens, and also another example of why Notts has been called the worse force in the UK (I better get a transfer), I've recently been transferred to another station along with 5 other cops, boosting that shift to 9 response cops and the Sgt.

"Fair enough". More cops to tackle crime you may think.

How many computers do we have for the nine of us? 2.
How many cars do we have for the nine of us? 4.
Who gets shouted up to attend jobs at the start of the shift as the previous shift are tied up at jobs? Us.
Where are these cars when we get that call at the start of our shift? Out with the previous shift....



Another example is if we turn out to a domestic. Last week we would do it like this...

Get the call. Turn out under blues and two's. Find out what's going on. Make an arrest if offender is on scene. Convey offender to custody and book him/her in. Get a solicitor travelling if required. Return to the victim to get a statement and complete domestic violence forms, return to custody and interview offender. Last week I turned out to such an offence and was done and dusted, with a charge within two hours.

If the offender isn't at scene or locatable, we get the statement and complete the domestic violence forms, then resume patrol, waiting for the next job. We then keep attempting arrests at random times between jobs, or warn the offender in, until we have interviewed him/her.

At the end of the shift, we complete the crime registration forms.

This week we have been given a new process to follow: we have to make the arrest that day, if not, we are expected to put together an anticipated "not guilty" file, which is circulated with the suspect as wanted, but then given back to us if the suspect isn't picked up within two days.

Now to do a file, we need to print the incident, fill in a crime report, register the crime report (if this is at the weekend it takes 48 hours to register anyway... ), take statements from the injured party, take statements from any witnesses, obtain a prosecutors print detailing the suspects previous convictions, complete victim of domestic violence questionnaires, complete safe-guarding children from DV questionnaire, complete an MG5 report which includes the same information (which is already on the crime report and incident log), create a circulation file, take the file to the divisional HQ.

How long will this take? Only about twice the time it took us to do the same job, this time last week. And then it's likely to come back to us anyway as the chance of that offender being picked up within two days by other officers who aren't actually actively looking (for the offender) are pretty slim

It seems as if the senior folk think of a plan to get them up the next step of the ladder, but don't think it through.

Leslie

Thats a long tortuous description ScoobyWon't and I think it is shocking that you have to go through all that guff which just seems to me to indicate the you are not trusted to do your job and they want every single detail covered even if it has no significance.

Its an indication of what I was trying to say about targets etc and how it removes your ability to do the job using your own experience and common sense.

When it comes to senior officers engineering things to suit themselves and their careers-tell me about it!

Les

The Zohan

Agreed Les.

Scoobywon't - My comments certainly are not aimed at the cops on the ground doing the job at all.

Felix.

The problem with Domestics is that police/CPS/Social services can only do so much. You get called to an incident and take positive action and arrest one of them (even if the other half are not telling you whats happened). But if they don't want any help, there is little we can do and they get back together again.

I agree, response shifts are stretched to the limit, with the public (quite rightly) wanting a good job done if they have to call the police - but the next person in the queue will have to wait longer to see them.

The Zohan

What would help Felix, more cops, more admin people, less admin and more resources such as cars, etc???

Felix.

Its not so much meeting targets Les, its more of always erring on the side of caution.

As the example above reads - a domestic argument which has resulted in a plate being smashed use to be dealt with by words of advice. But now thats not acceptable and the police will look at arresting for criminal damage. The theory being that if we take positive action, it will give the victim time to themselves & help. Also, the theory is that today it was the plate - next time it will be injury to someone.

This is what the public I assume would expect, as headlines in the press point the blame at forces who were wrong to deal with the incident of the broken plate by words of advice.

The problem is when you start going down the lines of always dealing with stuff to the N'th degree, you can't then suddenly go back and deal with it the way you use to.

Felix.

Absolutley. But like i say, a lot of the admin will be hard to get rid of now. But more admin people would be ideal and a purpose built computer system to help automate things more. Most of the computer systems tend to be a re-hash of an existing system to suite police purposes, but they are never ideal.

And a lot tougher sentences

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

How about a year inside for speeding? Or a year inside for going equipped to set fire to a speed camera?

Tough enough for you?

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

In the home counties some of the forces are trialing a DV car, This is a double crewed weekend car(s) that just respond to DV jobs.
It is taking a bit of pressure of the normal TPT cars as it frees the extra units.
From my view point it seems that the problem is this, If you have a not guilty interview then a file for a job as simple as husband slaps wife turns into this:
Deploy unit
Make arrest
DV template
Statement
House to house (due to one word against another in most cases)
Book into custody
Rights and entitlements
Disclosure to me (or the duty brief)
Consultation with suspect
Interview
Charging (or CPS direct)
now for the file!!!
MG3 (about 4 pages long)
MG4
ABC's
MG5 (about 5 pages long)
MG6 (3 pages or so but with loads of background details)
MG11's (all statements)
MG19
Medical consent form
Application for medical statement
Then
File off to CPS for defence and prosecution
First court date
Initial hearing

Thats all for a very simple common assault! 70% of the time the victim withdraws the day before court so all that work the officers put in is wasted.

Now if you think of all that work for 1 job, and then consider how many jobs come in divided by the amount of staff you can see how customer satisfaction can be low at times.

Bonehead

Today I arrested a shoplifter. He'd taken a drink valued £1.50
Present at the scene where myself (newbie cop), experienced cop and 2x PCSOS

Booking him into custody was me, 1x v experienced sgt, and 2x custody officers.
Before I've got to the file I'd hate to think how much that all cost in wages.
Value for public money?

Now I dont want to be late off as I'm near the end of my shift, so I go to one of the quieter offices to write up my handover but I find it's full of my shift writing up the days incidents because someone up high has decided our decent sized incident room is too big and now we have to use a tiny little room to work in.
Problem is 99.99% of what we do these days relies upon computers and central to our work is a specific system for incidents. Problem is most of the computers in our new office dont have that system on it yet as no-one has checked so I have to go off and find a free computer somewhere in the building that has the right 3 programs.

So I get my handover done, about a centimetre thick in paperwork all of which gets handed to the interviewing team to spend an hour or so preparing for a simple shoplifter (He admitted it on the way to custody and signed my note book),

All that for a £1.50 drink!

A colleague of mine says, "Policing is a simple job made difficult, usualy by our own organisation"
The basic part of it is simple, someone does something wrong, you try and sort it out, but you have to record and evidence every tiny little thing otherwise you're in the s**t

Dan Gleebits

far too many coppers now are bound by Performance Indicators, too much red tape , and even those that are too lazy to go walk anywhere are trained not so much in what 'we' know as Advanced Driving, its more 'Sector Driving'.

and far too many are more warped than those they are supposed to protect us from.

ScoobyWon't

In Notts, response shifts are treated like crap and all of the money goes in to specialist teams, which generally involves removing response cops and putting them in these new teams.

We have a dedicated Anti-social behaviour team, a pro-active team, a tactical support group, a firearms section, dog section, mounted section, public protection unit (domestic) and many, many more.

All of these have taken front line troops.

We now have the policing pledge where the call-takers are telling the caller we will be with them within an hour.
That's ok if you are at your first job of the day, but once you turn up to that job, the queue starts forming and control are shouting you up to try and get you to leave as soon as possible to get to the next job, to meet the pledge, however this is increasingly embarrassing to response cops who have to stop the job we are dealing with to tell control we are still committed, which in turn makes it look lie we are just rushing the job at hand and we don't care about this job and are focused on getting to the next one asap.

I know our neighbouring forces (Derby and Leics) treat their response officers like gold dust, they have all the equipment they need and they are there to respond and then pass on the investigations to the relevant department. If we pick up a domestic, which is PPUs specialist domain, we end up dealing. If PPU have too many to cope with, we end up dealing. If the beat teams are too busy to deal with anti-social behaviour, response go and deal. Yesterday, there was a missing two year old, believed to now be in the Philipines. CID made the arrest and wanted a search doing. Ideal - we have both force support and TSG to do that. Wrong - response cops had to do the search.

After typing all of this, I'm wondering why I'm bothering to do the job

ScoobyWon't

You'll find that you're in the **** as soon as you start and from that moment on, you're trying to cover your back and get rid of your shovel

hodgy0_2

i am afraid it is the cult of the management consultant -- a trend start by the _______ (insert here according to your political leanings)

You can't manage what you don't measure

and you can't target what you don't measure

straight from the Mckinsey book of management consultancy

billyray911

iTrader: (4)

Wasting Police Time: The Crazy World of the War on Crime

A good read and as true now,as ever

Dan Gleebits

*white-noise*



this place is brokened.

Bonehead

Could've written this about my lot.

I've just realised why a mate who'se in Derbyshire Police never seems stressed or tired, treated like gold dust!
God, I can wish, plus our hours are s**te

90% of what we deal with is crap, it's the rest that makes up for it, though sometimes it's 99 to 100% of what we deal with is crap.

Diesel

Its shocking the BS and bureaucracy you guys have to cope with - everyone knows where the public want you (and that tw@t Jack Straw...how frustrating his comments must have been - ohh and then there are the utter numptie CPS...).

Its time the public and the coppers got together again for the comon good. Its unbelievable the way that top politico cops have allowed the politicians and their own ambition ruin what was a far better service 20 years ago. Haven't they all risen through the ranks? That should be a good thing - why cant they see the wood for the trees and why do they manage their staff so poorly then? In this case unhappy staff means unhappy country too... I think its really serious.

D

superstar1

You do all realise there is a general election this year????

Diesel

The execs bear as much responsibility as the non-execs. So I'm voting for the Laura Norder party! D

Felix.

I have often said that these decision makers and politicians should spend some time on the shop floor before making comments such as his.

Diesel

Felix is the sense of discipline and rank in the force such that many don't rock the boat internally, or even effectively via the top heavy PF? If you lot were BA or Posties you'd be up in arms mate!

D

The Zohan

That makes for some disturbing reading!

LC Geezer

I've seen response times for i-calls as long as 4 hours

GC8WRX

That atricle backs up my theory that all new coppers are just **** lickers who hand out penalties ***** nilly just so they can go back to the station and get a pat on the back for meetin their quotas that day, no one gives a **** about real crime, its all about stats and numbers!


And someone please show that to SSU/Pete whatever his ******* name is and he might stop with the tired pro nu labia, anti "eaton boyz" crap he posts every day!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Which is why the MOTORIST, Lying Labour's favourite cash cow, is such an easy target: the majority of drivers are upfront, and honest, register their cars and happily drive around with an identifier, even one which tells the AGE of their vehicle, stuck to front and rear, all day. Click, one photo, one letter, that'll be £60 please. But easy money.


Don't bank on it