The Zohan

'The aristocracy is dead,' says Duke of Devonshire. Yes, but Britain is more class-bound than ever – Telegraph Blogs

Makes an interesting read

cster

I wonder how much of the class system is perpetuated from the bottom up.
In particular how many "working" class types are kept on the bottom rung by a social welfare system that was created in order to give people a hand up.
It seems to me that for all of the efforts of the (state run) education and health systems as well, the under-classes seem to maintain a resolute disadvantage in these areas compared to middles class types.
They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Maybe it is.

Bram

A lot of sense in what you have written, I often wonder if it is advantagious to have such a welfare state as ours without letting people take ownership for their plite. But where to start and could we take the reactions from the welfare fed populous when they are deprived of their funds.

CrisPDuk

The education system was deliberately fcuked up by Roy Hattersley and his 'Comrades' with this express intention

If you want to keep the masses under control, you keep the masses stupid. It's the basic tenet the whole of Marxism is founded upon

CrisPDuk

If you want evidence of the state of the UK's education system, just look at some of the spelling and grammar on your average internet forum

hodgy0_2

can you give proper referrences for that statement or is it direct from your backside

astraboy

The spelling mistakes are all the references he needs methinks...
astraboy.

hodgy0_2

point taken Astroboy

but I would still like to know where Marxism states that a lack of education is desirable in the masses


may you know?

cster

Is Marxism the acme of good intention over human nature, or indeed the cynical extension of the darkest side of human nature over it's positive?
Is that not the question?
Let's face it, there are plenty of rich (ex?) communists in this world.
The trouble is I notice, that they don't seem to possess much in the way of taste.
I guess moral superiority doesn't equate to class.

cster

I am pretty certain that this is not the case.
On the other hand, it is a good question to ask as to whether an educated populace would be willing to submit itself to Marxism and how might Marxism deal with this issue.
I believe there are some out there who feel that Marxism as is/was practised in certain societies, were not that happy with the concept of intellectual dissent. Far be it from me to say.
Perhaps there is an implied desirability for intellectual control, if indeed, not a stated desirability for lack of education.
Question number two is - what is the difference?

unclebuck

Under Nu Labour children are no longer educated but instead indoctrinated.


Long live communism...

mrtheedge2u2

Tony Benn said it best when he told Michael Moore "..an educated healthy and confident nation is harder to govern"

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

If you do your research you will find most internet forum posters are between 25 and 40 - therefore educated under Thatcher's education system

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

It doesn't. Just another stupid statement on Scoobynet like the idiots that reckon the current Labour government are socialists or communists.

Some education round here wouldn't go amiss.

MJW

This is true, I had to have words with my kids' head teacher about all the environmental indoctrination they're subjected to. It seems to me they're being primed to accept as dogma the taxes of the future, it really is nothing short of brain-washing. But of course, the head teachers can't do anything as they have to teach the curriculum set by the government ...

The Zohan

Hmm, did you see Dispatches last night? - numeracy in primary schools, focussing on one particular school in Bristol. Children about to move up to secondary school who where unable to do basic addition or multiplicaion or even know their times tables up to 10x table - i found this quite sad but at least they where open, honest about it and trying to do something about it.

10/11 year olds not able to do times tables - shocking.

The school took 11 weeks out of thier school year to prepare for the SATS tests, purely coaching and getting the kids able to do thier best at the SATS to make the school look good- 11 weeks of lost 'proper' teaching of the basics.

134 teachers tested on basic maths over 100 failed the test, perhaps we need to look at the quality of the teachers.

they then 'door-stepped' a few adults shopping in Bristol, some unable to work out if the 3 for the price of 4 was a better deal that the 2 for the price of three and how much the per item cost was. Some where unable to work it out others took an awful long time to do basic maths on round numbers.


You do not expect everyone to be the new Einstein but you would think that adults would be able to complete basic maths tasks, we all use numbers each and every day in one way or another.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Paul, your point bears zero relation to my quote. I am not saying education standards are good or aren't dropping, but I do take iussue with those who use words such as communism, marxism or socialism to describe the current government when to anyone with a modicum of intelligence it is obvious they are anything but.

The Zohan

I only asked if you or anyone else watched Dispatches last night...

agreed over the used of the left-wing descriptives for NL - there are left wing in the traditional sense

Leslie

I agree with a lot of that. I don't think the class system is as prevalent as it used to be, but there is a lot of inverted snobbery these days, not surprising in a way,probably engendered as much by people objecting to the fact that others are better off then they are. Of course there are those jumped up prats who want us to pay for their 1st class tickets and that won't help much either! Thats the greedy side of things!

Just after WW2 the Labour government instituted the 11+ scholarship for all children. This was the way for those from a poor background to get a good education and to learn how to use their innate abilities. The examination was in fact an intelligence test which meant that those who got through it were better placed to make the most of a good education. Those children from the poorest families were given the chance to get a bit further in life. This was an excellent system based on common sense!
I believe that people should be encouraged to use and develop their personal intelligence.

One of the most helpful ways to achieve in the world is to have a good education. Yes I know there are people who have done well without that, they used their intelligence to achieve also if they had the personal drive to go with it. They are few and far between.

These days, the PC Plonkers are dead against children showing their abilities via such an examination, calling it elitist, and insist that they must go to a comprehensive where so many are all dragged down to a similar lower level. Now of course, standards have been lowered to such a degree that all those A results don't actually count for so much. So many school leavers are effectively illiterate and innumerate now even though they might well have succeeded with better education. The Plonkers want more and more people to go to University even though so many are unsuited to it and don't get much benefit, especially since the high numbers of students are more than the universities can cope with anyway and the costs are high to little avail. Some of the university courses are beyond comprehension too! They bear little relation to anything in life which might be of use.

We need the grammar school numbers to be increased so that basic education is improved considerably, the teachers must be given their disciplinary powers back, and the disruptive pupils should be punished in the old style, and that includes corporal punishment.

Educational standards should be raised back to where they used to be, ie so that they actually mean something significant rather than massaging the statistics in favour of the government.

This government is guilty of arranging matters in an effort to make themselves look artificially good but which does very little for the people they are supposed to represent.

I have no time for a so called class system, and I think good education would go a long way to eliminating it.

Les

CrisPDuk

I did try and post my reply last night but mylaptop decided it wanted to crash instead

I don't have any 'proper' references, it is merely my opinion based upon what I read, observed from the governments of other countries, and am currently experiencing under this one

CrisPDuk

I think you'll find that the dismantling of the finest education system in the world took place under the regimes of Wilson and Callaghan, and was pretty much complete by the time Thatcher took power

Besides, from what I remember of my own time in the system(I'm 39), most schools were firmly within the grip of the NUT during the '80s, an organisation not commonly known for it's espousal of Thatcherite doctrine

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

But surely if she was the Messiah of the UK as so many of you seem to think a few union types wouldn't have stood in her way of her creating the perfect education system or are you saying that in 18 years of Tory power they were unable to change things made so bad by Callaghan/Wilson etc. Funny that as when that excuse is rolled out by Labour types currently it gets shot down in flames on here. Rightly so I might add.

I was educated in a state school in the 70s and I can read, write and do math ( ) better than most of the people on here without even trying.

So was I just lucky then? Or amd I just a genius?

Oh and by the way in your quote above it should be 'an organisation not commonly known for its', no apostrophe unless it's short for it is

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

There are a number of ways of looking at that;

Over the past ten to fifteenth years, people have been educated to use computers and now nearly everyone regardless of class or financial status has open/affordable access to the internet.

Whereas before, the uneducated wouldn't even know how to click a mouse. And the lower class wouldn't be in a situation to gain access to a computer/internet anyway.

So education and financial status is better as more lower class people can afford and know how to use computers and the internet. Yet on the flip side we still have mass illiteracy.

CrisPDuk

Point me to where I claimed Thatcher was the Messiah

I was educated in a state school in the '80s and to be honest I believe I got a good education despite the best efforts of a significant minority of the teaching staff

There were several teachers at my school who always appeared to be more interested either looking for any excuse for a bit of industrial action, or getting themselves onto as many away trips, junkets & paid holidays as they could

Thanks to my parents I already had (and still have) a voracious appetite for reading before I arrived at secondary school ( the cause of many confrontations with one particular English teacher ).

On the positive side, I do remember several of my former teachers with both affection and respect, especially the Maths and Science ones

CrisPDuk

You sneaked that edit in after I'd started my reply to your post

I'm laying the blame firmly at the door of my dyslexic fingers

Surely you should have been using " rather than ' when quoting me

Leslie

Like you CPD I do a lot of reading. I learned to read fairly early and have been enjoying it ever since.

I agree that doing a lot of reading helps a great deal with one's education.

les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Interesting you should bring that up. The two are actually both acceptable. However British teaching was to use single quotes whereas the Americans liked to use double quotes.

Latterly double quotes have become more accepted like a lot of things the Americans have force upon us, but I am British so therefore like to use single quotes when I can

Next!

hodgy0_2

maybe it was a confusion with Marx's quote regarding religion being the "opiate of the masses"

BTW most people would do well to read what Marx had to say -- not what people think he said

He was first and foremost an economist and philosopher - not a demented revolutionary

his central argument was that the structural contradictions within capitalism necessitate its end, and he believed it would pave the way to socialism.

But looking at the current state of global capitalism it seems he had a point with regard to the contradictions in capitalism

His theories were appropriated by revolutionaries in the late nineteenth century primarily as a means to galvanise the popular support needed to overthrow feudal regimes such as the Tsar in Russia

a lack of education in the masses would have been an anathema to Marx

Apologies for the backside comment btw

cster

Looks to me like he didn't think his theories through then.
Typical Socialist!
While it is fair to note his predictions regarding the contractions of capitalism, his lack of insight into the obvious shortcomings of Socialism make him fair game as a laughing stock IMO.

hodgy0_2

yes it’s an interesting philosophical point

the short comings of socialism do indeed show themselves in pretty much all post industrial societies

but there are other more primitive societies where the base concepts of socialism seem to work better