SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Mate of mine was pulled a few days ago for allegedly running a red light. He is absolutely adamant it was amber and he didn't brake as it was chucking it down and there was lots of standing water on the road (he was doing well under the speed limit and at no point was he accused of exceeding it). Police officer was quite arsey apparantly and said it had been red for over 2 seconds and they'd see who the courts would believe. Police officer was in a side street in his car and was on his own. My mate's a senior Dr (a Registrar in a Hospital - and has no previous convictions save for an SP 30 picked up a few months ago). No other witnesses or cameras etc.

If it goes to court is the Police officer's word enough?

Any (helpful and relevant!!!) thoughts Scoobynetters?

Many thanks!!!

LG John

It's my understanding that you need two sources of evidence to secure a conviction. A police officer's testimony is one. It sounds like he doesn't have a leg to stand on and your mate should plead not-guilty.

SteveScooby

iTrader: (2)

That's for speeding. You can secure a conviction with just a police officers word for some matters

my06 ppp silver

iTrader: (2)

probably not helpful, but imo relevant- police officers (not all btw) are known to be a law unto themselves. the courts and judges do know this!!, just depends who you get on the day. sounds as though his occupation though will be a good start as he would be taken more seriously than an unemployed tracksuit wearing skinhead.

hodgy0_2

a similiar thing happened to my brother and he took it all the way to court

not that is should matter but he his an IT Consultant working for IBM

just police officers word against his (so maybe diff coz more than one policeman, they were in a parked van) - he knew he was in the right - the lights were green when he went thru plus the police vision was obscured by another parked van so that they could not have seen whether the lights were red or green.

he had photos etc etc

but still lost

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the reply - My initial view is that it's his word against the police officer's - and I'm pretty sure that if there were two police officers then he'd be bggered. Where you've only got one police officer then I think you need to weigh up the evidence - and in this case it seems to be his word against the police officer's and there is no other evidence?

Leslie

You could always ask if he has written in his notebook that he called you several effing kinds of a c..t and who did you think the magistrate would believe-you or a policeman?

I know someone who said that in court-quite truthfully incidentally, and got off!

Les!

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Les - I think that might actualyl be helpful (not the cnt bit....!). Think Mags know that some coppers can be heavy handed and may be likely to say "well whose word do you think they take - your or mine...." - and this could be helpful - it was only after that that the copper asked what my mate did for a living - he looks like an asian incredible hulk and is occassionally a bit scruffy - and it was only after telling the copper his profession that he got really arsey about insurance, was the car his, was it DEFINTELY his, was it modified, was it insured to drive to work - was it a bespoke buiness policy etc etc etc - sounded like he was trygin to find somethign to get him with (although fair enough to check the car and driver out once you've gone ot teh trouble of pulling someone over I supose).

Think it's worth having a go - anyone know what the likely court costs are if it goes to the Magstrate's Court and he loses?

Simon K

Ive been in the same siutation, amber light, rain pletting down, etc etc. I aruged the toss but still got 3 points. The copper even agreed that stopping would of caused me to skid and cause issues but "The law is the law and he has to enfoce it" was he reply.

Okay, fair play, but this means I reckon police officers should be sacked the moment they break a law, or speed, or red light. Live by the sword, die by it too !

Tell your friend to accept the points, as the police woffice's word will be taken as fact, as policer's statements are meant to be considered truthful and fact, or something legal like that.

SBK

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

SBK - I think we'd try to argue the police officer made a mistake - rather than allege he was lying - as that's a more serious allegation and doesn't often go down well in court I don't think.

I'm pretty sure that re amber signals, you have to stop - but only if it is safe to do so...

Assuming my mate was in the right - and let's even assume that the light was green fro the sake of argument - surely the courts have to take a careful approach to ensure no miscarriages of justice - i.e. it's better where the evidence is not concrete enough for a guilty person to get off than an innocent one to be convicted? - so is a single policeman's evidence enough - or can you argue he got it wrong (not that he's lying, but it's a mistake?).

Thanks for input - useful to build up a snap shot of whether people were done or not - also, may be useful to say where about's it happened as Mags have different policies in different areas. This was in Leicester.

Thanks again all.

LG John

This is how it works on paper.

That is not how it works in reality. Many, innocent people have their lives ruined by a system where you are in actual fact required to prove your innocence.

hodgy0_2

have to agree with Saxo Boy 100%

as a lawyer friend said to me a few years ago -- few cases get tested in the High Court of Appeal

Justice at this level can be a bit of a pre packaged conveyer belt process

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Mmmm - as I've said to my friend, he's got 28 days form th incident to either acet the fine (£60 plus 3 points) or to contest so he can take his time to calm down and consider what will be less ball ache... This one's genuinely not fair though!

EddScott

I went to court in an attempt to fight my drink driving ban.

I was actually home when the police called and when I followed them out to the cop car the copper put his hand on the bonnet of my car. I did the same and it was stone cold as I'd only driven a mile or two at most.

In court the copper said the car bonnet was hot. Blatant lie.

Ray T

is he a member of the aa/rac etc? they should have a legal dept that could represent him.

cster

Unless you can prove the officer was "mistaken", it would be easier on everyone if you just plead guilty.
On the other hand, you can plead not guilty and put it to the officer that his testimony is a complete farago of untruths and question his character etc- could be a bit off a laugh although unlikely to get you off.
They will probably charge you by the word when it comes to extra fine and costs though so get your monies worth.
A case where a "scamera" would be desireable it seems.

LG John

Did he breathalyse your mate? See if you can get him on procedure or something like that

Jerome

In the vast majority of cases, the courts will believe a police officer. Apart from them being assumed to be honourable, the court would also be thinking, "why would the copper lie anyway?".

Having said that, my brother was falsely accused of running a red light by an off-duty copper (whom my brother had been gobby to on a previous occasion). If my brother wasn't a driver for a living, and hadn't been on 9 points, he would have put it down to experience (don't be gobby to coppers), and taken the points.

However, as his livelehood was at stake, he got a loan out and hired a solicitor to fight the case. The day before the court date, the case was dropped. I suspect he was lucky the copper bottled in the face of the evidence my brother had accumulated.

As for the whole "there has to be two coppers for a conviction", surely that is a myth. I frequently see traffic coppers on their own.

Personally, I would fight tooth and nail to prove my innocence - whatever the inconvenience or cost. This mate of yours may regret not fighting this if he picks up another couple of 3 point convictions in the next 3 years. Which is far to easy in the scamera society we live in today.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Firstly tell your mate just to accept the 3 points and £60 fine.

I've just been through this. I know I went through on amber had I braked for the lights I would of had an accident. Even had a witness to say so.
Still got 3 points and a £180 fine!!

ah! This explains so, so much.

EddScott

Care to explain why or is it some cheap random attempt at retaliation for taking the pi55 in your gearbox thread?

LG John

Sadly if there is enough evidence to actually get the case into a court then you are best to accept the points/fine an be done with it as dazdavies suggests. If you don't believe me then look up the offender conviction rates for crimes falling into the "motoring offences" category. It's staggeringly high!!!!! In short, if you go to court on a motoring charge....you will lose.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

This has been my experience, and that of friends. Magistrates listen to what you have to say, ignore it, and fine you more than you would have got by taking the original offer, plus costs, plus, these days, a victim surcharge of £15......another of Labour's little stealth taxes

Better off accepting the original offer.............which is EXACTLY what these people want, easy money.

Jap Import

I had this many moons ago, just after passing my test.
Driving through a GREEN light in the middle of a town at midnight.
At the other end of town (approx quarter of a mile) gets pulled over by a riot van equipped with 6 coppers.

They tell me I jumped a red light and then one of them tries to explain, but keeps messing up and another officer jumped in to finish his sentences correctly (I assumed at the time that this idiot was on training and it was his first go, lol).
Anyways, I'm in the van and they're all sat there telling me that there are 6 of them and if I argue the toss that it will go to court and I will not win with just my word over theirs.
I'm also told that I have 2 bold front tyres also and only just having passed my driving test it will mean a ban for sure.
My tyres were not bold!

I left with my tail between my legs with the paperwork and thought I would take this up with the head at the local station.
They weren't interested so I wrote a letter, with no response.
Anyways, to cut a long story short I had the points put on my license and sent off the cheque, however, to this date the money has never left my account.

On my return to my girlfriend at the times house that same night we caught the police playing "snooker" on the scanner. Can't understand why they chose me that night as I had a white car!

Bent the lot of em!!!

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Magistrates used to be called police courts, for an obvious reason. Only the name has changed, not their behaviour. Difficult to call whether to challange a coppers statement. Mybe worth speaking to a traffic solicitor

mamoon2

They are a law unto themselves these lot....

I got caught speeding by a speedtrap. Fair enough, hand up. Only problem was I didn't have my license as i'd just moved house and i'd sent it to the DVLA to change the address on it. The copper was very helpful and told me to explain this to the police station when I produced (this was 2006, think they just check you out over radio now).

When I went into the station, the rude and unhelpful bint behind the counter said I was failing to produce my license and would have to go to court. She wasn't even interested in speaking to the copper who issued the ticket.

It went to court and I wrote a letter for the magistrate explaining about the license being at DVLA and even photocopied the newly issued card with the new address on. Did they care? did they buggery, gave me 4 points and £100 fine - for doing 43 in a 30

Bluie

This happened to me and my then boss many years ago circa 20 years

He was driving a then new Supra, we were both early 20s, we went through the lights which were not red. Cops followed and then pulled us over.

Long story short we went to court, two coppers said we went through red light, we denied it, no solicitor involved, no conviction points or fine.

Not sure how, but I assume the judge knew we were telling the truth.

Got the feeling the coppers were jealous of two young chaps in a nice car, which didn't have the name of the company down the side unlike theirs.

yoza

I have had a similar experience where I had to appear at the local magistrates on a speeding offence, to cut a long story short I was observed by two officers on foot who said " in their opinion " I was speeding.

I got an £80 fine and 3 points.

I did have a brief paid for by myself (£175 for half an hour), he put a case forward, stateing lack of evidence and "opinion" not being good enough for prosecution etc.. and lost.

He even threw a crumpled piece of paper across the room and asked one of the officers how fast it was going....to be honest I think that was a mistake.

I was speeding in a 40 zone, but I thought there was no way they could do me " in thier opinion "...I was wrong, they could, and did.

I was accellerating from rest as I passed the two officers on the beat, I went straight past them, and thought nothing of it, until the summons/nip arrived.

hodgy0_2

ahah another Petrocelli fan

yoza

Sorry thats lost on me, but I take it my man wasnt the first to use this line..

David Lock

I think your mate needs to be a little careful about the rain and road conditions. Your post gives the impression that he was gong slightly too fast, even if under the limit, to stop safely if needed.

Perhaps he could turn that around by saying he was proceeding very cautiously because of the conditions and that may be why the lights changed as he was clearing the lights?

Good luck anyway. dl