David Lock

OK so UK are still faffing around about having a referendum which Brown chickened out off.

But have we actually ratified the Treaty. I didn't think we had but all I hear is that once Czech + one other country have signed then all 27 members have signed??

Can someone put me straight please.

Thanks, dl

NotoriousREV

Yes, it was voted for by the Commons, passed by the Lords and given Royal Assent last year.

Leslie

But not by the electorate, which is what really matters!

Les

TelBoy

Off, the opposite of on. You can't chicken out off something.


Yes the treaty has been ratified, and the Labour Party are saying that it's signed sealed and delivered. The Tories are hoping to question the legality of that decision given that there was never a UK referendum (even though there didn't need to be one). It would without doubt end up in the courts of Strasbourg where our fate would be decided for us, as per usual with anything EEC related. Nobody knows the outcome for sure.

Leslie

Ratification or not, that was an artificial event on the part of Flash for their own purposes.

How can any government give so much power over its own country away to another and quite separate organisation without allowing the people of the country to have the full circumstances explained to them and also to have the last say in the matter?

Les

stilover

Can't we just cry "Human rights"? It works for everything else.

David Lock

[quote=TelBoy;8985997]Off, the opposite of on. You can't chicken out off something.

Quite correct TB - now naff of

Thanks for answering my original question btw.

Yeah I remember the vote now - can't think how I forgot that.

I think one needs to be a bit cautious about referendums as you may well end up with the people voing one way and their elected politicians taking the opposite view. Perhaps a Manifesto pledge makes it a special case.

Also if Cameron arranges one he will be duty bound to say what exactly his government would do when there is a NO. Does he know??

dl

TelBoy

He knows he will try and challenge the validity of the ratification. I can only assume he's had high-powered legal advice telling him he has some sort of chance of success, otherwise he wouldn't keep banging on about it. Ireland was a case in point of voting the "wrong" way according to their ruling party, so they just timed a re-vote for when the Irish economy was on its knees - totally different outcome guaranteed. Which is disingenious by any other name, but then this is politics we're talking about.

Leslie

[quote=David Lock;8986525]Surely the point of a referendum is to find the will of the people over some kind of legislation etc. which will have a major change as far as the people are concernd.

If the answer is different to what the politicians prefer, thats just tough luck. The will of the people is far more important than what the politicians think-often to their own advantage these days!

Les

TopBanana

Even if it has been ratified, what sanctions could the EU bring to bear? I think we could just back out of it.

Leslie

Tell them to get stuffed, just like one of our previous Prime Ministers did!

Les

TelBoy

Not that simple, we've gone further this time than ever before. Of course, if the UK did just ignore a European Court ruling that we were bound by what we'd signed, it's hard to envisage that the EEC could force us to comply. But the political ramifications, especially with Blair as the President, would be substantial. Europe doesn't understand the UK at the best of times, this would further alienate us from European co-operation. The UKIP keep saying we'd be fine without Brussels' help, but that's easy to say till the $hit hits the fan. I loathe the EEC and everything it claims to stand for, but backing out now might, unfortunately, be something we cannot do. We shall see.

Leslie

It may well be a matter of which is the lesser evil, but I personally don't much like the idea of my life being dictated by those bent charlatans over there and also not being able to employ self determination any more.

Les