Dodgey one this please help
11 March 2002, 01:42 PM
#2
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Alternatively, request a new log book for it (as shes the purchaser as far as the hp are concerened) find out where it is and go and collect it, and if they refuse report it stolen to police along with its whereabouts etc.
At least you might be able to get the car and sell it to clear outstanding finance.
Might also be a good idea to talk to the finance co, cos if they have sold the car its technically still the finance co's car.
At least you might be able to get the car and sell it to clear outstanding finance.
Might also be a good idea to talk to the finance co, cos if they have sold the car its technically still the finance co's car.
11 March 2002, 01:58 PM
#3
astraboy
Tried that m8 and guess what they didn't want to know [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
PTHOLT
If you request a log book won't it go to the new owners address? Also the b*astards had it registered in their name [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] this is a bloody nightmare
Tried that m8 and guess what they didn't want to know [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
PTHOLT
If you request a log book won't it go to the new owners address? Also the b*astards had it registered in their name [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] this is a bloody nightmare
11 March 2002, 03:01 PM
#4
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It doesnt matter who has the log book or who its registered to, that doesnt actually mean the vehicle belongs to them.
you have a finance doc (hopefully) and perhaps a receipt from the car dealer which should be in your sisters name as she was the person getting finance, this should be sufficient to prove who actually 'owns' the car.
you have a finance doc (hopefully) and perhaps a receipt from the car dealer which should be in your sisters name as she was the person getting finance, this should be sufficient to prove who actually 'owns' the car.
11 March 2002, 03:24 PM
#5
ptholt
Interesting idea
As for a receipt etc they had that, but she has got letters etc from the finance company and as far as the finance company are concerned my sister owns the car. Her ex-boyfriend (****) even went to the lengths of taking out insurance then cancelling it saying that they had not bought the car just so he could get the insurance cover note to give the dealer [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] I get the impression that this was very well planned and I think it may have happened before With these letters etc will she have anything to go on?
Thanks for replying
Paul
Interesting idea
As for a receipt etc they had that, but she has got letters etc from the finance company and as far as the finance company are concerned my sister owns the car. Her ex-boyfriend (****) even went to the lengths of taking out insurance then cancelling it saying that they had not bought the car just so he could get the insurance cover note to give the dealer [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] I get the impression that this was very well planned and I think it may have happened before With these letters etc will she have anything to go on?Thanks for replying
Paul
11 March 2002, 03:50 PM
#6
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It might be worth asking the car dealer for a copy of the invoice to your sister, then use that with finance doc etc and attempt to have the car returned, or use it in a fraud case (though i am guessing proving it will be hard if you sister was ill).
11 March 2002, 03:57 PM
#7
ptholt
Yeah bit of git trying to prove that she was ill but I don't know if doctors records will count??? I will ask her if she can remember where the car came from. I just wish there was an easy way of finding out where the car is If we could get it and sell it then we could pay off the finance and forget the whole thing but sadly it appears to have gone missing.
Yeah bit of git trying to prove that she was ill but I don't know if doctors records will count??? I will ask her if she can remember where the car came from. I just wish there was an easy way of finding out where the car is
If we could get it and sell it then we could pay off the finance and forget the whole thing but sadly it appears to have gone missing.
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11 March 2002, 04:11 PM
#8
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paul,
You're treading in some tricky legal waters here!! Issues that seem to need resolving are (1) your sister's "capacity" to enter into the finance contract at the time (2)fraud (3)legal ownership of the car (4) your sister's liability under the finace agreement (5) kneecapping the ex-boyfriend
Suspect illness/depression isn't enough to get out of the finance agreement. Do you have a copy of it? What does it say about ownership. With some finance agreements the customer owns the car straight away, with others the finance company owns the car until the finance is cleared full. That means that it shouldn't be sold. But, cars are often sold by people who don't legally own them and, in certain circumstances, the legal ownership of the car can pass to the innocent buyer.
I'd guess that you were looking at an uphill struggle, legally, to get your sister out of liability to the finance company. She might have a right to recover that from her ex but that's probably no use to you/her at the moment. The law is great at theory but doesn't always answer the practical issues.
Hope that helps - can't help with (5)
Tell the police and let them try and find the ex if you have a name and last known address. Otherwise you might want to invest a couple of hunderd quid in a private investigator to track him down - it's amazing what these people can find.
You're treading in some tricky legal waters here!! Issues that seem to need resolving are (1) your sister's "capacity" to enter into the finance contract at the time (2)fraud (3)legal ownership of the car (4) your sister's liability under the finace agreement (5) kneecapping the ex-boyfriend
Suspect illness/depression isn't enough to get out of the finance agreement. Do you have a copy of it? What does it say about ownership. With some finance agreements the customer owns the car straight away, with others the finance company owns the car until the finance is cleared full. That means that it shouldn't be sold. But, cars are often sold by people who don't legally own them and, in certain circumstances, the legal ownership of the car can pass to the innocent buyer.
I'd guess that you were looking at an uphill struggle, legally, to get your sister out of liability to the finance company. She might have a right to recover that from her ex but that's probably no use to you/her at the moment. The law is great at theory but doesn't always answer the practical issues.
Hope that helps - can't help with (5)
Tell the police and let them try and find the ex if you have a name and last known address. Otherwise you might want to invest a couple of hunderd quid in a private investigator to track him down - it's amazing what these people can find.
11 March 2002, 04:36 PM
#9
seejay555
Thanks for the reply. This has been going on years now and it needs sorting. I do know where he lives and the b*stard has pots of money, very fast escort cossie, rally cars etc. thing is like you said it is an uphill struggle, and I wish there was an easy answer what p1sses me off is that people like this take advantage of other people to finance their "other projects" (see above) I have just tried getting hold of a copy from the garage that sold the car and they said it would be difficult to find because the car was bought nearly 3 years ago I do like your number 5 idea though I would get alot of pleasure from that I dare say that someone on here may even know who I am talking about?
Thanks for the reply. This has been going on years now and it needs sorting. I do know where he lives and the b*stard has pots of money, very fast escort cossie, rally cars etc. thing is like you said it is an uphill struggle, and I wish there was an easy answer
what p1sses me off is that people like this take advantage of other people to finance their "other projects" (see above) I have just tried getting hold of a copy from the garage that sold the car and they said it would be difficult to find because the car was bought nearly 3 years ago I do like your number 5 idea though I would get alot of pleasure from that I dare say that someone on here may even know who I am talking about?
11 March 2002, 04:42 PM
#10
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paul,
What exactly are you trying to get hold of a copy of - not clear from the posts? If it's the finance agreement surely your sister can get this from the finance co? If it's the V5 the police might be able to help once you have been to see them and told them what's going on.
What exactly are you trying to get hold of a copy of - not clear from the posts? If it's the finance agreement surely your sister can get this from the finance co? If it's the V5 the police might be able to help once you have been to see them and told them what's going on.
11 March 2002, 04:56 PM
#11
seejay555
Sorry about the confusion, I was trying to get hold of the finance agreement. She has tried the police but I don't think she got anywhere with them I will get her to call the finance company and ask for a copy of the agreement. I have been told to write to the dvla regarding the v5 and tell them the story and see what they say.
Sorry about the confusion, I was trying to get hold of the finance agreement. She has tried the police but I don't think she got anywhere with them
I will get her to call the finance company and ask for a copy of the agreement. I have been told to write to the dvla regarding the v5 and tell them the story and see what they say.
12 March 2002, 09:03 AM
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paul
re the garage not being helpful
all non retail businesses are legally required to retain documents relating to transactions for seven years.
they will have a record of the transaction - they are just being lazy.
re the garage not being helpful
all non retail businesses are legally required to retain documents relating to transactions for seven years.
they will have a record of the transaction - they are just being lazy.
12 March 2002, 10:23 AM
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I am suprized the Police were not interested..
I think you should go with your sister to the police station and report the car stolen and / or explain...
Could be that there is another inocent party involved how has bought the car from the ex now. This cannot be helped though but hopefully they should be able to tell you were it was bought from and be willing to stand up in court (he has just had his car taken) and at least you can get the ex for selling a car with outstanding fiance which he definitly knows about etc... or selling on your sisters car as it were without concent...??
May be able to stop paying the finance and therefore the finance company (assumnig they own the car) will try and recover the car..
they will be able to find it.. maybe they might be willing to help as they are possibily going to lose money otherwise.
Obviously your sister will get hit of credit rating but at least might not owe the money.
Hope you get it sorted...
JGM
I think you should go with your sister to the police station and report the car stolen and / or explain...
Could be that there is another inocent party involved how has bought the car from the ex now. This cannot be helped though but hopefully they should be able to tell you were it was bought from and be willing to stand up in court (he has just had his car taken) and at least you can get the ex for selling a car with outstanding fiance which he definitly knows about etc... or selling on your sisters car as it were without concent...??
May be able to stop paying the finance and therefore the finance company (assumnig they own the car) will try and recover the car..
they will be able to find it.. maybe they might be willing to help as they are possibily going to lose money otherwise.
Obviously your sister will get hit of credit rating but at least might not owe the money.
Hope you get it sorted...
JGM
12 March 2002, 10:34 AM
#14
Jolly green monster
Thanks for replying
She did stop paying the finance when the payments from the ex stopped and that is how this all came to light what happened I wish I knew what was going on at the time because I could done something about him When she went to the police I was not with her but I may call my local police station now and see what they can tell me. The reason I started this off again is because someone innocent may have bought the car I am afraid the finance company already want to take her to court for the amount and I believe that amount is still greater than the car is worth sadly they were told where the car was ages ago but did not reposess (sp) it I think this and her ex boyfriend have already screwed up her credit rating big time anyway [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Thanks again
Thanks for replying
She did stop paying the finance when the payments from the ex stopped and that is how this all came to light what happened
I wish I knew what was going on at the time because I could done something about him When she went to the police I was not with her but I may call my local police station now and see what they can tell me. The reason I started this off again is because someone innocent may have bought the car I am afraid the finance company already want to take her to court for the amount and I believe that amount is still greater than the car is worth sadly they were told where the car was ages ago but did not reposess (sp) it I think this and her ex boyfriend have already screwed up her credit rating big time anyway [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]Thanks again
12 March 2002, 12:38 PM
#15
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Well if the amount is more then two thirds (or half in some cases) of the balance financed, the finance co will go for repossession of the goods, they will track the car and take it back.
It would then be sold at auction and your sister ccj'd for the any oustanding balances.
If the amounts outstanding are under the above, they will just take her to court.
Either way not a great proposition.
It would then be sold at auction and your sister ccj'd for the any oustanding balances.
If the amounts outstanding are under the above, they will just take her to court.
Either way not a great proposition.
12 March 2002, 12:47 PM
#16
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it's a tough one.
As said before the name on the log book doesn't mean 'owner' it means the registered keeper.
The finance company 'own' the car.
Stop the payments - if your sister goes to court, it will come out the car has been sold on - the new registered keeper will be found and should say he bought it off a chap on whatever date (unless he sold it to a mate who lies about who he bought it off!! ), thus clearing your sisters name.
Seriously, speak to the CAB.
As said before the name on the log book doesn't mean 'owner' it means the registered keeper.
The finance company 'own' the car.
Stop the payments - if your sister goes to court, it will come out the car has been sold on - the new registered keeper will be found and should say he bought it off a chap on whatever date (unless he sold it to a mate who lies about who he bought it off!! ), thus clearing your sisters name.
Seriously, speak to the CAB.
12 March 2002, 02:06 PM
#17
Thanks for the replies
Just spoke to the police this morning and they said that the log book is in effects the deeds to the car and whoever it is registered to has the right to sell it
I tried telling them that it is on finance and the finance agreement only shows that my sister is paying for it they could only advise to go the citzens advise bureau No one really wants to help here On my way back from work at dinner I just spotted the car being driven but didn't have chance to or really want to follow it because it had 3 asians in it and I was on my own [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Just spoke to the police this morning and they said that the log book is in effects the deeds to the car and whoever it is registered to has the right to sell it
I tried telling them that it is on finance and the finance agreement only shows that my sister is paying for it they could only advise to go the citzens advise bureau No one really wants to help here On my way back from work at dinner I just spotted the car being driven but didn't have chance to or really want to follow it because it had 3 asians in it and I was on my own [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
13 March 2002, 05:03 AM
#19
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Paul
This is what the CAB say (dont ask what i'm doing up at 0500h !)
"Unfortunately, your friend's sister is in a difficult position.
If the car has been sold, if the person who bought it is a private individual (i.e. not a trader) and didn't know it was still subject to a finance agreement, they normally get what is called "good title" - this means that they become the legal owner. Your friend's sister could report the car a stolen, but if it has been sold this will create hassle for the person who has bought it, but probably not her ex-boyfriend or his sister. This area of law is complex. It might be worth reporting it to the policeanyway.
The police have the ability to trace who the registered owner of a car is,but they may not be willing to do so, and even if they do, it might not help.
As your friend's sister was the one who signed the finance agreement, she is legally liable to make the repayments, even though she hasn't got the car (and it sounds like she never had it). What she could do is take her ex and/or his sister to court for the money she is liable to pay out. To do this, she would need an address for where they live. She would have to pay a court fee - as a rough guide it would cost around 10% of what she was claiming, and if they defended and the amount was more than £1,000, there would be a further fee of £80. If the amount claimed is less than £5,000, it would be dealt with on what is called the small claims track - this is designed to be straightforward, so solicitors aren't needed. Forms and
explanatory leaflets are available on the Court Service website,
www.courtservice.gov.uk. Unfortunately, even if she won a court case, it doesn't guarantee she'd get the money.
I am sorry I can't give your much good news, but please let us know if we can assist further."
Sorry its not that helpful mate
Dave
This is what the CAB say (dont ask what i'm doing up at 0500h !)
"Unfortunately, your friend's sister is in a difficult position.
If the car has been sold, if the person who bought it is a private individual (i.e. not a trader) and didn't know it was still subject to a finance agreement, they normally get what is called "good title" - this means that they become the legal owner. Your friend's sister could report the car a stolen, but if it has been sold this will create hassle for the person who has bought it, but probably not her ex-boyfriend or his sister. This area of law is complex. It might be worth reporting it to the policeanyway.
The police have the ability to trace who the registered owner of a car is,but they may not be willing to do so, and even if they do, it might not help.
As your friend's sister was the one who signed the finance agreement, she is legally liable to make the repayments, even though she hasn't got the car (and it sounds like she never had it). What she could do is take her ex and/or his sister to court for the money she is liable to pay out. To do this, she would need an address for where they live. She would have to pay a court fee - as a rough guide it would cost around 10% of what she was claiming, and if they defended and the amount was more than £1,000, there would be a further fee of £80. If the amount claimed is less than £5,000, it would be dealt with on what is called the small claims track - this is designed to be straightforward, so solicitors aren't needed. Forms and
explanatory leaflets are available on the Court Service website,
www.courtservice.gov.uk. Unfortunately, even if she won a court case, it doesn't guarantee she'd get the money.
I am sorry I can't give your much good news, but please let us know if we can assist further."
Sorry its not that helpful mate
Dave
13 March 2002, 09:32 AM
#20
druddle
Thankyou for finding that out for me It confirms what I was starting to think really It is actually my sister who has been stitched up and not a friends sister and that is why I am so annoyed [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] I can't believe it looks like she is going to get screwed for this I will now keep an eye out for the car again (saw it yesterday being driven) and see if I can speak to the driver. I think the amount is about £1000 outstanding
Thankyou
Paul
Thankyou for finding that out for me
It confirms what I was starting to think really It is actually my sister who has been stitched up and not a friends sister and that is why I am so annoyed [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] I can't believe it looks like she is going to get screwed for this I will now keep an eye out for the car again (saw it yesterday being driven) and see if I can speak to the driver. I think the amount is about £1000 outstanding Thankyou
Paul
13 March 2002, 10:54 AM
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paul - good luck with this one mate. i just pasted the reply i got from the person at the CAB so thats why is says my frisnds sister. sorry it couldnt help much.
dave
dave
13 March 2002, 02:56 PM
#24
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Paul hope u get it sorted. Try and find a solicitors that will give u a free session to explain your case (they do exist) and see what they say, u don't then have to stay with them and go to court but their advice would be very helpful and u may find the courts is the best way, especially as you know where the scumbag family live! Also make sure option 5 is carried out in a very discrete way! Best of luck...
13 March 2002, 03:05 PM
#25
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paulpalmer,
I used to be a sales rep for a Finance Company, the problem she has got is that she has signed her name on the finance document so that makes her responsible for the vehicle, its a nightmare situation to be in, the problem is that the title of the vehicle is not passed to the owner until the last payment has been made, so the car is still the property of the finance company, if she doesnt pay regardless of having the car or not, the finance co will sue for the balance, if i was her i would go see a solicitor asap to get this mess sorted out, if she could get the car back then she could hand it back to the finance company with probably not a lot to worry about, if not i would tell them that her ex has the car, problem is proving that she was coersed into signing the document without really knowing what it was, as ptholt has said, if she has the finance agreement, if i was her i would ring the police to tell them whats happened, cos its basically a major case of fraud, not good.
sorry m8, its a nightmare good luck
I used to be a sales rep for a Finance Company, the problem she has got is that she has signed her name on the finance document so that makes her responsible for the vehicle, its a nightmare situation to be in, the problem is that the title of the vehicle is not passed to the owner until the last payment has been made, so the car is still the property of the finance company, if she doesnt pay regardless of having the car or not, the finance co will sue for the balance, if i was her i would go see a solicitor asap to get this mess sorted out, if she could get the car back then she could hand it back to the finance company with probably not a lot to worry about, if not i would tell them that her ex has the car, problem is proving that she was coersed into signing the document without really knowing what it was, as ptholt has said, if she has the finance agreement, if i was her i would ring the police to tell them whats happened, cos its basically a major case of fraud, not good.
sorry m8, its a nightmare
good luck
22 October 2002, 04:23 PM
#27
Hello All
A quick update here, This went to court this afternoon and got dismissed All in all the case must have looked pretty stupid because there were forged signitures, wrong addresses, my sister didn't even have a license at the time etc. Thanks to everyone for their advice
Paul
A quick update here, This went to court this afternoon and got dismissed
All in all the case must have looked pretty stupid because there were forged signitures, wrong addresses, my sister didn't even have a license at the time etc. Thanks to everyone for their advice Paul
22 October 2002, 04:49 PM
#29
The judge person said thats it all over for her I just hope they chase him for the money now because he was the guarantor (sp) and the b@stard who started the whole thing the final figure owing is £1200 and luckily the facts show that she does and never has owned that car or took out a finance aggreement on it When I saw all the paperwork I laughed There was letters and documents that she was supposed to have signed but the copies the court showed us had a forged signiture which was basically her name written scruffily and not even an attempt to copy her signiture
Thanks
Paul
I just hope they chase him for the money now because he was the guarantor (sp) and the b@stard who started the whole thing the final figure owing is £1200 and luckily the facts show that she does and never has owned that car or took out a finance aggreement on it When I saw all the paperwork I laughed There was letters and documents that she was supposed to have signed but the copies the court showed us had a forged signiture which was basically her name written scruffily and not even an attempt to copy her signiture Thanks
Paul