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Old 09 June 2009, 12:20 PM
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EddScott
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Default Would this offend you?

My wifes boss is about to have a baby and so will be off work for a while (they are hairdressers)

The boss has put up cameras in the salon so she can watch the salon from home.

Now I think I would feel offended that my boss felt the need to put up cameras in order to watch the staff. I know for a fact that when they have a quiet period, the boss will be on the phone ordering them around.

I'm so sick of these people. Just want to go down there and hand in my wifes notice on her behalf. They want her to run the place yet be watched - and all on minimum wage - she was promised more money but naturally it hasn't appeared.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:24 PM
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darts_aint_sport
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Yes it would offend me.

Is it even legal?
Old 09 June 2009, 12:27 PM
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yes, that would offend me too. I also think it may be illegal.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:31 PM
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Yes, and it probably is legal.
I know several shops with security cameras inside, not sure if they have remote access though.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:33 PM
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Dedrater
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Why would it be illegal? Go into any supermarket chain, Tesco, Asda etc all cameras are remote access in there.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:34 PM
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r32
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I would be offended. Plus I dont think its fair to run the Salon on a low wage, there comes a lot of responsibility with looking after the shop and I dont think your wife is being paid fairly.
Time to look for another job.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:49 PM
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Markus
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Ah, this is the total bitch of a salon boss. From your prior posts it does not surprise me in the least that the control freak wants to do this.

Would I have a problem with it, yes, I would. Security cameras are one thing, but it is obvious these are not going to be used just for security purposes, their primary function is, frankly, intimidation. To let the staff know they are being watched, and that if they take a breather then they'll be moaned at. I surprised she's not installing a voice system too so she can go all Big Brother on them, both in the ****e TV show sense and the Orwellian sense "Can XXXX come to the punishment room" where they'll be ragged on for stopping work for 20 seconds to take a breather.

I am wondering wether there is anything in workplace privacy laws that cover this type of monitoring, where it is clear it is not for security purposes. It might well be worth looking into.

Does she have a contract (seem to recall something about not being able to work within some radius in case customers were poached, so I think she does have some written agreement) if so, is there anything in there about being video monitored, if not, perhaps there needs to be and if there isn't it could be grounds to prevent this from happening.

Any idea what type/model of cameras will be installed? Sounds like it's an IP device, in which case, it'd be a shame if the internet connection kept pretending it was a yo-yo Not that I'd *ever* condone any kind of antics which might effect the IP system

** edit **
On the legality side of things. I believe that supermarkets certainly have signs saying you are under video surveillance. I'm not sure if this is legally required or not. Other shops no doubt have the same signs.
Now, monitoring one's staff is one thing, but what about customers? Is this not a privacy issue, if they are not being told they are being filmed? Are signs going to be put up saying that you are being filmed? If not then I'm sure that is a privacy issue. If signs are put up, aren't the customers going to think it might be a bit odd, and if they ask, will they be told exactly why they are there, not for security, but for a power tripping bitch to get her fix.

Last edited by Markus; 09 June 2009 at 12:53 PM.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:53 PM
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cossie-nutter
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Right! If you turn the eclectic off on the trip switch for 5 seconds the boss will have to come back to the shop to reset the camera's! The will soon get bored of it!
Old 09 June 2009, 12:54 PM
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EddScott
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The wages thing is a joke. They take money off if not busy and shut early but don't add it on if they work past "shut tap" time. She was promised £1 extra per hour when the boss wasn't there, the boss hasn't been there for a full day since she found out she was pregnant. She does about two people all day whereas my wife is run off her feet and is barely allowed her lunch breaks.

Now these cameras - I appreciate they would want to make sure the place is safe and secure but my wife has stayed with this girl all through other people living because of her behaviour towards staff and yet they feel she has to be watched?

Her boss is just about to go on leave to have this baby. My wife has to run the place and handle hers and her bosses client and guaranteed something won't be right and my wife will get blamed. Her boss will speak to them like crap but then when any of them stand up for themselves she goes running to her boyfriend (the money behind the salon) and say the staff are picking on her???

And after all this, my wife doesn't want to leave now because she doesn't want to leave her boss in the lurch with the salon and a new baby and feel obligated to her clients (which she can't take with her if she leaves). And with this attitude she needs watching? Cretins!

Markus - your right, same person. It is a complete power trip. Like I said, there will be some instances where the boss is going to tell them off for not working hard enough. She even told them recently they had to bring in more clients for the salon - even though the clients are the salons and not the stylists - WTF?

We've discussed starting up on our own but we have naff all money so would have to start with loans etc - I've even said I'd sell my car to help fund it - I'm that determined! We have to be careful because the boss's boyfriends family is rich so we need to be careful when it comes to the contract and law - we can't afford to fight them. However, I think we need an hour with a solicitor to see if by breaking fundamental EU regs they can't use the contract against my wife if she works or sets up somewhere else within 6 months.

Last edited by EddScott; 09 June 2009 at 01:01 PM.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:56 PM
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Jamz3k
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My previous MD had trust issues with his staff and did this a few months after i left the company. According to the guys he's constantly watching them like a voyeur and the moment they stop look like they are doing nothing he's onto them, to the point that when one of the staff was on the computer sending an email, he asked for proof that he was infact emailing a customer

I was offered a very lucrative deal to go back and work for him but this has very much put me off the job completely.
Old 09 June 2009, 12:59 PM
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speedking
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I should think that customers in a hairdresser's, and the state they look most of the time, would be very unwelcoming of a video recording being made of their visit.
Old 09 June 2009, 01:01 PM
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Ed,

Your wife needs to understand that she owes this woman NOTHING. She needs to set up her own place and take her clients with her.

Personally, I would be holding a gun to the womans head threatening to walk out the door the day she goes on maternity leave.

Best of luck mate
Old 09 June 2009, 01:12 PM
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Markus
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Would your wife get sick pay if she were signed off with a doctors note, say for stress leave? If so, then I'd say she needs stress leave, ooh, about a week after the boss goes. What a shock on the timing, but hey, stress is a funny old thing, and it is serious, you don't want her having a nervous breakdown now do you.

I'd advise giving the CAB a ring on the camera front. Find out if what is being done is legal, vis a vis privacy laws. If signage must be displayed and she wont' display it so as not to upset customers, then there are grounds for having the cameras removed.

Aww, so she'll go running to the bf if the nasty staff gang up on her, poor lamb. What is he going to do, threaten the staff? One does hope so, and hope he's a thick rich **** and does it in the shop and it's on camera (are they just video or AV cams, can sound be picked up? you MUST check that, just in case the PTB - power tripping bitch - can hear what is being said and go forbid someone says something even one word against her) as that could be shown to the police as a physical threat.
Old 09 June 2009, 01:19 PM
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Sorry to say its perfectly legal, if they cameras are not covert or if they are covert but a sign or verbal warning has been issued then no problems with it at all.
Plus it being a public place makes the goings on public domain.

I can see why this would offend people, I know there is the obvious issue of trust. I think if it was my business and I was leaving it in others hands, no matter how long I had known them I would want to check in every now and then.

Best thing to do is run the hell out of the business, be a do a roaring trade, start up on your own and teach the women about the nasty side of business.
Old 09 June 2009, 01:36 PM
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EddScott
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I've said on many occasions that my wife should write a list of all the issues she has and demand a meeting with the boss and BF. Especially now as they are going to need her there (they have no other qualified stylists) - even if its just an increase in respect rather than wages. That would be start. Thing is once you start kicking off to the boss its only a matter of time before it all goes sour.

The BF family own a large department store in town and are also known for treating staff poorly. However I'm sure he also knows staff can't really be treated poorly for the enjoyment of the boss.

Its not that I don't agree with having some form of control over the place, thats fine. Its the way its implemented together with the attitude of the boss that makes it obvious its to watch the staff - and that is what I find intolerable.

My wife is naturally worried that starting out on her own won't work but I've told her if she never does, she'll never know and she can't put up with being treated in this manner for ever.

Our big thing is if we can wriggle out the contract and this 6 months thing. Her boss doesn't honour certain aspects of the contract so I'm wondering if it works both ways. Again, if it comes down to whose got the most money to get lawyers involved its not us - and they would take us to court - even if it cost them more than if they just left us alone - they would out of shear arrogance because they think they are better than anyone else as they are "known" in the area.
Old 09 June 2009, 01:42 PM
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Why doesn't your wife start up her own salon?
Old 09 June 2009, 01:53 PM
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get your wife to tell her boss to get to f*ck, she obviously dosnt rate your wife as fit to run the salon by her self before shes fitting cameras to keep an eye on her and the others, my sister is a hairdresser and works self employed and actually does quite well at it, could you wife not do the same and go self employed
Old 09 June 2009, 02:01 PM
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I wouldn't worry too much about the cameras to be honest. I installed some network cameras in my factory after a spate of thefts and believe me, the novelty of watching them all the time soon wears off. I tend to only use them now if there's an accident to check if H&S procedures have been followed & to prevent any no-win no-fee jiggery pokery. Plus her boss will have her hands full with a new-born baby ; I'll bet she won't check on them very often.
Old 09 June 2009, 02:08 PM
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EddScott
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Originally Posted by stilover
Why doesn't your wife start up her own salon?
She can but she under a restraint of trade 6 months/half mile radius.

The place we are after is within the half mile - plus as I said we have to be careful because we can't afford to fight them if it went to court.

We wouldn't actively target her old clients for 6 months as contracted, but I want to know what would be the law if the client made their own decision to come to our salon. i.e. we don't poach but if they follow are we supposed to say we can't cut their hair>
Old 09 June 2009, 02:16 PM
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Leslie
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Difficult to believe that someone can be so petty and distrusting of her staff. I would be highly offended and would be tempted to hang bits of cloth in front of the cameras!

Les
Old 09 June 2009, 02:44 PM
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sbk1972
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If honest, and I ran a hair saloon, then I would do the same. I work in offices where cctv is everywhere, from corridors, to lifts, to trade floors, to data centers, part of life.

At the end of the day, its her business and she can do what she pleases. Whether it builds staff moral, then obviously not.

Being a hair saloon, then lets be honest, jesus you girls can talk, and play around with each others hair all day. So, perhaps she's quite switched on to this fact.

It boils down two choices, accept or go. I cant imagine moving from one saloon to another is diffcult, and there's the option of starting up on your own.

Amazing how being your own boss, your definition of fair, unfair is totally different.

Whilst the camera are being install, rob as much product as you can, especially if your thinking of going on your own ! :-)

SBK
Old 09 June 2009, 02:48 PM
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I am not sure about that contract you know, I would get someone to have a look over it. Just because someone makes you sign something doesnt make it legal.
I had the same deal with a multi national and I got out of it on the grounds that I would not "poach" business but also if people come to me I cant be expected to turn them away.
Old 09 June 2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamz3k
My previous MD had trust issues with his staff and did this a few months after i left the company. According to the guys he's constantly watching them like a voyeur and the moment they stop look like they are doing nothing he's onto them, to the point that when one of the staff was on the computer sending an email, he asked for proof that he was infact emailing a customer

I was offered a very lucrative deal to go back and work for him but this has very much put me off the job completely.

Speak to an employment lawyer - verging on grounds for constructive dismissal as an employee has the right to have the support and confidence of his/her manager or something like that... Worth looking into in that extreme case.
Old 09 June 2009, 02:53 PM
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I'd be looking elsewhere if I was your wife. minimum wage? Is she Polish?! (No BNP )
Old 09 June 2009, 03:11 PM
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EddScott
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Originally Posted by sbk1972
If honest, and I ran a hair saloon, then I would do the same. I work in offices where cctv is everywhere, from corridors, to lifts, to trade floors, to data centers, part of life.

At the end of the day, its her business and she can do what she pleases. Whether it builds staff moral, then obviously not.

Being a hair saloon, then lets be honest, jesus you girls can talk, and play around with each others hair all day. So, perhaps she's quite switched on to this fact.

It boils down two choices, accept or go. I cant imagine moving from one saloon to another is diffcult, and there's the option of starting up on your own.

Amazing how being your own boss, your definition of fair, unfair is totally different.

Whilst the camera are being install, rob as much product as you can, especially if your thinking of going on your own ! :-)

SBK
I agree its up to her what she does and it is her business to do as she pleases. If she is happy to alienate her staff and behave like a **** and she feels thats how to run the place then more power to her.

If she finds that she can't hold down staff for more than a few months well at least its run how she wants it.

My wife won't sit and talk. The salon she worked in before the owners and other girls constantly talked about how drunk they were at the weekend and who they were being humped by this week. Drove her demented and unsurprisingly they folded.

My wifes has worked in this current salon for nearly 2 years and has never let them down - only taking time off through having her appendix out and that needed a visit to prove she had the scars!! One of the staff last week was in serious trouble with food poisoning (resulting in hospitalisation) and the boss said we have a toilet she can be sick in there. WTF?

I understand the cameras, I really do but in this situation it just creates even more annimosity.

Just spoke to my wife (first break since 8.30) and theres 4 cameras in total its not even that big a shop. They have already demonstrated that they are watching the staff when the boss boyfriends mum didn't come in and the boss said oh yes, I saw she didn't come in.

It all seems very tedious IMO.

Last edited by EddScott; 09 June 2009 at 03:16 PM.
Old 09 June 2009, 03:13 PM
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Had similar when doing sales for a company. Despite winning them loads of accounts and adding a lot of business to their client base, they didn't trust me or anyone else.
The boss was the son of the woman who set it up and step son of the bloke - they were pretty sound but decided to move to Spain leaving him in charge.
He was often away and used to check up on everyone by more or less making his staff spy on each other.
He had plans for full CCTV to watch us, then without me knowing, started checking 'net access - so he printed off a major winge of mine I made to some mates.

Very very odd behaviour and looking back, I don't know why I put up with it.

Sounds like your missus' boss is similar - she should jack it in pronto.
Old 09 June 2009, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by EddScott
She can but she under a restraint of trade 6 months/half mile radius.

The place we are after is within the half mile - plus as I said we have to be careful because we can't afford to fight them if it went to court.

We wouldn't actively target her old clients for 6 months as contracted, but I want to know what would be the law if the client made their own decision to come to our salon. i.e. we don't poach but if they follow are we supposed to say we can't cut their hair>

Restricted covenants aren't really worth the paper that they are written on. Your partner is a hairdresser by trade, so she cannot be stopped from carrying out her trade - unless the woman is prepared to compensate her to NOT work for a period of time?

I have one in my contract but no way can anyone stop me being a London courier company manager as that is what my trade is and it's specific to London. They can write what they want, it's not "reasonable" (the basis for English law) to stop me from working. Same applies.


Oh & there's no restriction on clients, they can do as they please. It's up to the woman to PROVE that they went as a result of your approaching them, which is very hard. The other part to that is "malicious prosecution" or somesuch where they take you to court just to waste your time/money, so as long as your partner isn't standing outside with leaflets, then it'll be almost impossible for the woman to win.

Last edited by Puff The Magic Wagon!; 09 June 2009 at 03:25 PM.
Old 09 June 2009, 03:42 PM
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if the cameras are only going in because he will be away, I would walk away from the job !
Old 09 June 2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Puff The Magic Wagon!
Restricted covenants aren't really worth the paper that they are written on. Your partner is a hairdresser by trade, so she cannot be stopped from carrying out her trade - unless the woman is prepared to compensate her to NOT work for a period of time?

I have one in my contract but no way can anyone stop me being a London courier company manager as that is what my trade is and it's specific to London. They can write what they want, it's not "reasonable" (the basis for English law) to stop me from working. Same applies.


Oh & there's no restriction on clients, they can do as they please. It's up to the woman to PROVE that they went as a result of your approaching them, which is very hard. The other part to that is "malicious prosecution" or somesuch where they take you to court just to waste your time/money, so as long as your partner isn't standing outside with leaflets, then it'll be almost impossible for the woman to win.
I'm not so sure - I hope your right. When you google restricted trade you find a fair amount relates to hairdressers. There seems to be non-compete, non-solicit and non deal. I'm sure she has the first two but not sure about the third in her contract.

Its half mile and 6 months which doesn't sound too bad as theres records on the net about 1+ year and 1+ mile upheld by the courts - however when you get to court and the person you are sueing has no money whats the point? We aren't married really and she has no assets so they can't come after me if it went that far.

I keep telling her she should ask for a new contract as her responsibilities have increased and she should ask for the restriction removed or reduced. If they won't then she walks - the boss is having a baby in less than a month and they need her more than she needs them. We don't depend on her wages to run the family home etc.

I guess what we could do to avoid the worry of this contract is look for another job in the next town. Its not too far but out of the range of the contract. Do that for 6 months and in between time set the salon up here so after 6 months she can come back. She can't hardly take a pay cut

Last edited by EddScott; 09 June 2009 at 03:59 PM.
Old 09 June 2009, 05:31 PM
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Leslie
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I have always found that if you mistrust the people working for you then their attitude towards you will be just the same. If on the other hand you show that you trust them you will get much more support in return.

Les


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