Standing up to hatred - Holocaust Memorial Day 2009 - A lesson to learn?
28 January 2009, 02:57 AM
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Standing up to hatred - Holocaust Memorial Day 2009 - A lesson to learn?
Yesterday, I was very fortunate to have been invited to Beth Shalom, the Holocaust Centre in Notts, to share in Holocaust Memorial Day.
This years theme is Stand Up To Hatred and we had several guest speakers who absolutely blew me away. I had initially wanted to immediately post about the day when I retuned home, but chose to reflect on the messages which had been shared.
The first person to greet my group was Manny Barot, a member of the Trust and Confidence Board and a retired police officer. Manny shared many personal experiences with us, including his own battle with health and the legacy he would like to leave, stories of his children being told they are "different" as their mother is white and Manny, himself, is in his own words "not so white". He also told us of the guilt he felt when after opening a section of the displays at the Holocaust Centre, his five year old daughter turned to him after viewing one photograph and asked "Daddy, why were those policemen killing people? Why didn't you stop them? After all, Manny has always raised them with the notion that you do right to be right. So why would a police office (in the photo) be doing wrong? Out of the mouths of babes...
Manny introduced us to the work that the Holocaust Centre aims to undertake, and explained to us that we would no doubt, as many visitors before us, have gone on a journey of enlightenment during the day. Our brief video presentation focused on the recent genocides which have taken place in Europe and Africa. He did not want to educate us on his own views and simply waved us through a door saying that he would happily answer questions in an hours time.
For those of you who haven't visited before, the centre features a museum which tells the story of people, normal people, much like we claim to be today, going through history from as far back as 1066, to the anti-semitism of **** occupied Europe.
There was a very interesting section on National Socialism which took us on the journey of the development and implementation of race ideology in the Third Reich. It was not immediately evident how those troubled times of the 1930/40s were relevant in the current climate, but by examining how Hitler used the downturn of the economy to his advantage in order to get people to follow his cause may make you think about the future.
Also included in the museum are section on life in the ghettos and concentration camps as part of the Final Solution and reflection on the lessons which to be learnt after liberation from these camps.
The second section we visited is entitled The Journey which is aimed at primary school children. This section of the museum features a multimedia experience, moving room to room, experience to experience telling the tale of a 10 year old Jewish boy in **** Germany, who shares his diary with you. It did seem amazing that it could take a child to ask the question "Why is it happening?" when adults were allowing it to happen.
At this point we met our second speaker for the day.
Andy Sykes is a chap from Bradford. Some of you will have seen him on television in 2004 in a documentary called The Insider. After being introduced as a brave man and someone with guts and honour, Andy took to the floor and immediately sent jaws crashing. His first sentece was "I'm Andy Sykes, I live in Bradford and I joined the BNP". The silence was deafening. After all, we were at a centre which wants us to remember the atrocitoes suffered by many at the hands of racial hatred.
Andy went on to explain how he was introduced to the BNP through meetings and propoganda. Luckily, he had quickly become disillusioned with its actions and ideals.
Andy had been acting as a mole within the BNP since the time of the Bradford riots in 2001, passing on information about its activities to the Trades Union Congress. He agreed to introduce Jason, a BBC journalist, to other BNP members as an activist and help him to make film evidence of racism within the party.
The link was now clear to myself that lessons had not been learnt. The BNP are standing in the next European elections, they are already distributing propoganda, and now we are faced with a social-economic downturn. From walking around the museum it was quite frankly shocking to see that these were exactly the key ingredients used by Hitler to gain power and control.
It was not just Jews who preshed under Hitler's **** regime, but so did political opponents, the travelling Gypsy communities, homosexuals and many more. Could this happen again?
On Holocaust Rememberance Day, the message struck home. We say we have learnt, but have we? There are numerous cases of genocide which have occured since WWII, notably Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia and Cambodia. I've been lucky enough to spend some time with a very intellegent chap who is the General Secretary of Police Diversity Trainers Network, Kevin McCudden. to quote Kevin
.
It was with great pleasure that the final speaker of the day was Dr. Martin Stern, himself a survivor of the Holocaust. Dr Stern told his story from being a young German five year old hiding in Holland to his liberation from a concentration camp and his work now as an activist. Dr Stern who was standing in the room in front of me only a few whort hours ago, lived only 7 minutes walk away from the house of Anne Frank. There was no hatred towards Germans or ***** from Dr Stern. He, as a Jew, does not hold a shread of hatred for the arab nations who fire rockets into Isreali-controlled land.
It is with this that a truly moving and enlightening day ended, leaving myself with a greater understanding of why genocide happens and how it builds, wanting to make a difference and not being scared to say no to hatred but also left me asking "have we learnt any lessons?"
On a day of rememberance I value the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives to protect and rescue victims, as a touchstone of the human capacity for good in the face of evil yet recognise that humankind is still scarred by the belief that race, religion, disability or sexuality make some people's lives worth less than others'. Genocide, antisemitism, racism, xenophobia and discrimination still continue. An estimated 6 million lives were lost during WWII on those beliefs, many more in more recent conflicts. I believe that we have lost too many lives and I will for one, do my best to do right to be right.
I have no interest in influencing anybodies views on politics, military campaigns or beliefs, just that I would like to share the experiences of my visit.
Should anyone be interested, the following links provide further information:
Untitled Document
www.aegistrust.org
www.gfh.org.il
Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Welcome to the Imperial War Museum
This years theme is Stand Up To Hatred and we had several guest speakers who absolutely blew me away. I had initially wanted to immediately post about the day when I retuned home, but chose to reflect on the messages which had been shared.
The first person to greet my group was Manny Barot, a member of the Trust and Confidence Board and a retired police officer. Manny shared many personal experiences with us, including his own battle with health and the legacy he would like to leave, stories of his children being told they are "different" as their mother is white and Manny, himself, is in his own words "not so white". He also told us of the guilt he felt when after opening a section of the displays at the Holocaust Centre, his five year old daughter turned to him after viewing one photograph and asked "Daddy, why were those policemen killing people? Why didn't you stop them? After all, Manny has always raised them with the notion that you do right to be right. So why would a police office (in the photo) be doing wrong? Out of the mouths of babes...
Manny introduced us to the work that the Holocaust Centre aims to undertake, and explained to us that we would no doubt, as many visitors before us, have gone on a journey of enlightenment during the day. Our brief video presentation focused on the recent genocides which have taken place in Europe and Africa. He did not want to educate us on his own views and simply waved us through a door saying that he would happily answer questions in an hours time.
For those of you who haven't visited before, the centre features a museum which tells the story of people, normal people, much like we claim to be today, going through history from as far back as 1066, to the anti-semitism of **** occupied Europe.
There was a very interesting section on National Socialism which took us on the journey of the development and implementation of race ideology in the Third Reich. It was not immediately evident how those troubled times of the 1930/40s were relevant in the current climate, but by examining how Hitler used the downturn of the economy to his advantage in order to get people to follow his cause may make you think about the future.
Also included in the museum are section on life in the ghettos and concentration camps as part of the Final Solution and reflection on the lessons which to be learnt after liberation from these camps.
The second section we visited is entitled The Journey which is aimed at primary school children. This section of the museum features a multimedia experience, moving room to room, experience to experience telling the tale of a 10 year old Jewish boy in **** Germany, who shares his diary with you. It did seem amazing that it could take a child to ask the question "Why is it happening?" when adults were allowing it to happen.
At this point we met our second speaker for the day.
Andy Sykes is a chap from Bradford. Some of you will have seen him on television in 2004 in a documentary called The Insider. After being introduced as a brave man and someone with guts and honour, Andy took to the floor and immediately sent jaws crashing. His first sentece was "I'm Andy Sykes, I live in Bradford and I joined the BNP". The silence was deafening. After all, we were at a centre which wants us to remember the atrocitoes suffered by many at the hands of racial hatred.
Andy went on to explain how he was introduced to the BNP through meetings and propoganda. Luckily, he had quickly become disillusioned with its actions and ideals.
Andy had been acting as a mole within the BNP since the time of the Bradford riots in 2001, passing on information about its activities to the Trades Union Congress. He agreed to introduce Jason, a BBC journalist, to other BNP members as an activist and help him to make film evidence of racism within the party.
The link was now clear to myself that lessons had not been learnt. The BNP are standing in the next European elections, they are already distributing propoganda, and now we are faced with a social-economic downturn. From walking around the museum it was quite frankly shocking to see that these were exactly the key ingredients used by Hitler to gain power and control.
It was not just Jews who preshed under Hitler's **** regime, but so did political opponents, the travelling Gypsy communities, homosexuals and many more. Could this happen again?
On Holocaust Rememberance Day, the message struck home. We say we have learnt, but have we? There are numerous cases of genocide which have occured since WWII, notably Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia and Cambodia. I've been lucky enough to spend some time with a very intellegent chap who is the General Secretary of Police Diversity Trainers Network, Kevin McCudden. to quote Kevin
With the continuing rise of extremist views in Britain and Europe, and increasing incidents of hate crime and racially motivated attacks, the lessons we can gain from the Holocaust are as relevant today as they have always been
It was with great pleasure that the final speaker of the day was Dr. Martin Stern, himself a survivor of the Holocaust. Dr Stern told his story from being a young German five year old hiding in Holland to his liberation from a concentration camp and his work now as an activist. Dr Stern who was standing in the room in front of me only a few whort hours ago, lived only 7 minutes walk away from the house of Anne Frank. There was no hatred towards Germans or ***** from Dr Stern. He, as a Jew, does not hold a shread of hatred for the arab nations who fire rockets into Isreali-controlled land.
It is with this that a truly moving and enlightening day ended, leaving myself with a greater understanding of why genocide happens and how it builds, wanting to make a difference and not being scared to say no to hatred but also left me asking "have we learnt any lessons?"
On a day of rememberance I value the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives to protect and rescue victims, as a touchstone of the human capacity for good in the face of evil yet recognise that humankind is still scarred by the belief that race, religion, disability or sexuality make some people's lives worth less than others'. Genocide, antisemitism, racism, xenophobia and discrimination still continue. An estimated 6 million lives were lost during WWII on those beliefs, many more in more recent conflicts. I believe that we have lost too many lives and I will for one, do my best to do right to be right.
I have no interest in influencing anybodies views on politics, military campaigns or beliefs, just that I would like to share the experiences of my visit.
Should anyone be interested, the following links provide further information:
Untitled Document
www.aegistrust.org
www.gfh.org.il
Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Welcome to the Imperial War Museum
28 January 2009, 10:41 AM
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well done
i read the articles about what to do with Auschwitz, i.e. whether to let it crumble (I have not been, but apparently the fact that it has left "as is" is very powerful)
Or to restore it -- thus maybe diminishing its impact -- but allowing the symbolism to live on -- otherwise it will only benefit the Holocaust deniers
the best book I have read on the subject is by Gita Sereny "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder"
unbelievably powerful book where she interviews the **** Camp Commandant of Treblinka who initially refuses to talk to her – but by the end does, and in doing so realises what he has done and kills himself (its not fiction btw)
i read the articles about what to do with Auschwitz, i.e. whether to let it crumble (I have not been, but apparently the fact that it has left "as is" is very powerful)
Or to restore it -- thus maybe diminishing its impact -- but allowing the symbolism to live on -- otherwise it will only benefit the Holocaust deniers
the best book I have read on the subject is by Gita Sereny "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder"
unbelievably powerful book where she interviews the **** Camp Commandant of Treblinka who initially refuses to talk to her – but by the end does, and in doing so realises what he has done and kills himself (its not fiction btw)
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 January 2009 at 11:18 AM.
28 January 2009, 10:45 AM
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Yesterday, I was very fortunate to have been invited to Beth Shalom, the Holocaust Centre in Notts, to share in Holocaust Memorial Day.
This years theme is Stand Up To Hatred and we had several guest speakers who absolutely blew me away. I had initially wanted to immediately post about the day when I retuned home, but chose to reflect on the messages which had been shared.
The first person to greet my group was Manny Barot, a member of the Trust and Confidence Board and a retired police officer. Manny shared many personal experiences with us, including his own battle with health and the legacy he would like to leave, stories of his children being told they are "different" as their mother is white and Manny, himself, is in his own words "not so white". He also told us of the guilt he felt when after opening a section of the displays at the Holocaust Centre, his five year old daughter turned to him after viewing one photograph and asked "Daddy, why were those policemen killing people? Why didn't you stop them? After all, Manny has always raised them with the notion that you do right to be right. So why would a police office (in the photo) be doing wrong? Out of the mouths of babes...
Manny introduced us to the work that the Holocaust Centre aims to undertake, and explained to us that we would no doubt, as many visitors before us, have gone on a journey of enlightenment during the day. Our brief video presentation focused on the recent genocides which have taken place in Europe and Africa. He did not want to educate us on his own views and simply waved us through a door saying that he would happily answer questions in an hours time.
For those of you who haven't visited before, the centre features a museum which tells the story of people, normal people, much like we claim to be today, going through history from as far back as 1066, to the anti-semitism of **** occupied Europe.
There was a very interesting section on National Socialism which took us on the journey of the development and implementation of race ideology in the Third Reich. It was not immediately evident how those troubled times of the 1930/40s were relevant in the current climate, but by examining how Hitler used the downturn of the economy to his advantage in order to get people to follow his cause may make you think about the future.
Also included in the museum are section on life in the ghettos and concentration camps as part of the Final Solution and reflection on the lessons which to be learnt after liberation from these camps.
The second section we visited is entitled The Journey which is aimed at primary school children. This section of the museum features a multimedia experience, moving room to room, experience to experience telling the tale of a 10 year old Jewish boy in **** Germany, who shares his diary with you. It did seem amazing that it could take a child to ask the question "Why is it happening?" when adults were allowing it to happen.
At this point we met our second speaker for the day.
Andy Sykes is a chap from Bradford. Some of you will have seen him on television in 2004 in a documentary called The Insider. After being introduced as a brave man and someone with guts and honour, Andy took to the floor and immediately sent jaws crashing. His first sentece was "I'm Andy Sykes, I live in Bradford and I joined the BNP". The silence was deafening. After all, we were at a centre which wants us to remember the atrocitoes suffered by many at the hands of racial hatred.
Andy went on to explain how he was introduced to the BNP through meetings and propoganda. Luckily, he had quickly become disillusioned with its actions and ideals.
Andy had been acting as a mole within the BNP since the time of the Bradford riots in 2001, passing on information about its activities to the Trades Union Congress. He agreed to introduce Jason, a BBC journalist, to other BNP members as an activist and help him to make film evidence of racism within the party.
The link was now clear to myself that lessons had not been learnt. The BNP are standing in the next European elections, they are already distributing propoganda, and now we are faced with a social-economic downturn. From walking around the museum it was quite frankly shocking to see that these were exactly the key ingredients used by Hitler to gain power and control.
It was not just Jews who preshed under Hitler's **** regime, but so did political opponents, the travelling Gypsy communities, homosexuals and many more. Could this happen again?
On Holocaust Rememberance Day, the message struck home. We say we have learnt, but have we? There are numerous cases of genocide which have occured since WWII, notably Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia and Cambodia. I've been lucky enough to spend some time with a very intellegent chap who is the General Secretary of Police Diversity Trainers Network, Kevin McCudden. to quote Kevin .
It was with great pleasure that the final speaker of the day was Dr. Martin Stern, himself a survivor of the Holocaust. Dr Stern told his story from being a young German five year old hiding in Holland to his liberation from a concentration camp and his work now as an activist. Dr Stern who was standing in the room in front of me only a few whort hours ago, lived only 7 minutes walk away from the house of Anne Frank. There was no hatred towards Germans or ***** from Dr Stern. He, as a Jew, does not hold a shread of hatred for the arab nations who fire rockets into Isreali-controlled land.
It is with this that a truly moving and enlightening day ended, leaving myself with a greater understanding of why genocide happens and how it builds, wanting to make a difference and not being scared to say no to hatred but also left me asking "have we learnt any lessons?"
On a day of rememberance I value the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives to protect and rescue victims, as a touchstone of the human capacity for good in the face of evil yet recognise that humankind is still scarred by the belief that race, religion, disability or sexuality make some people's lives worth less than others'. Genocide, antisemitism, racism, xenophobia and discrimination still continue. An estimated 6 million lives were lost during WWII on those beliefs, many more in more recent conflicts. I believe that we have lost too many lives and I will for one, do my best to do right to be right.
I have no interest in influencing anybodies views on politics, military campaigns or beliefs, just that I would like to share the experiences of my visit.
Should anyone be interested, the following links provide further information:
Untitled Document
www.aegistrust.org
www.gfh.org.il
Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Welcome to the Imperial War Museum
This years theme is Stand Up To Hatred and we had several guest speakers who absolutely blew me away. I had initially wanted to immediately post about the day when I retuned home, but chose to reflect on the messages which had been shared.
The first person to greet my group was Manny Barot, a member of the Trust and Confidence Board and a retired police officer. Manny shared many personal experiences with us, including his own battle with health and the legacy he would like to leave, stories of his children being told they are "different" as their mother is white and Manny, himself, is in his own words "not so white". He also told us of the guilt he felt when after opening a section of the displays at the Holocaust Centre, his five year old daughter turned to him after viewing one photograph and asked "Daddy, why were those policemen killing people? Why didn't you stop them? After all, Manny has always raised them with the notion that you do right to be right. So why would a police office (in the photo) be doing wrong? Out of the mouths of babes...
Manny introduced us to the work that the Holocaust Centre aims to undertake, and explained to us that we would no doubt, as many visitors before us, have gone on a journey of enlightenment during the day. Our brief video presentation focused on the recent genocides which have taken place in Europe and Africa. He did not want to educate us on his own views and simply waved us through a door saying that he would happily answer questions in an hours time.
For those of you who haven't visited before, the centre features a museum which tells the story of people, normal people, much like we claim to be today, going through history from as far back as 1066, to the anti-semitism of **** occupied Europe.
There was a very interesting section on National Socialism which took us on the journey of the development and implementation of race ideology in the Third Reich. It was not immediately evident how those troubled times of the 1930/40s were relevant in the current climate, but by examining how Hitler used the downturn of the economy to his advantage in order to get people to follow his cause may make you think about the future.
Also included in the museum are section on life in the ghettos and concentration camps as part of the Final Solution and reflection on the lessons which to be learnt after liberation from these camps.
The second section we visited is entitled The Journey which is aimed at primary school children. This section of the museum features a multimedia experience, moving room to room, experience to experience telling the tale of a 10 year old Jewish boy in **** Germany, who shares his diary with you. It did seem amazing that it could take a child to ask the question "Why is it happening?" when adults were allowing it to happen.
At this point we met our second speaker for the day.
Andy Sykes is a chap from Bradford. Some of you will have seen him on television in 2004 in a documentary called The Insider. After being introduced as a brave man and someone with guts and honour, Andy took to the floor and immediately sent jaws crashing. His first sentece was "I'm Andy Sykes, I live in Bradford and I joined the BNP". The silence was deafening. After all, we were at a centre which wants us to remember the atrocitoes suffered by many at the hands of racial hatred.
Andy went on to explain how he was introduced to the BNP through meetings and propoganda. Luckily, he had quickly become disillusioned with its actions and ideals.
Andy had been acting as a mole within the BNP since the time of the Bradford riots in 2001, passing on information about its activities to the Trades Union Congress. He agreed to introduce Jason, a BBC journalist, to other BNP members as an activist and help him to make film evidence of racism within the party.
The link was now clear to myself that lessons had not been learnt. The BNP are standing in the next European elections, they are already distributing propoganda, and now we are faced with a social-economic downturn. From walking around the museum it was quite frankly shocking to see that these were exactly the key ingredients used by Hitler to gain power and control.
It was not just Jews who preshed under Hitler's **** regime, but so did political opponents, the travelling Gypsy communities, homosexuals and many more. Could this happen again?
On Holocaust Rememberance Day, the message struck home. We say we have learnt, but have we? There are numerous cases of genocide which have occured since WWII, notably Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia and Cambodia. I've been lucky enough to spend some time with a very intellegent chap who is the General Secretary of Police Diversity Trainers Network, Kevin McCudden. to quote Kevin .
It was with great pleasure that the final speaker of the day was Dr. Martin Stern, himself a survivor of the Holocaust. Dr Stern told his story from being a young German five year old hiding in Holland to his liberation from a concentration camp and his work now as an activist. Dr Stern who was standing in the room in front of me only a few whort hours ago, lived only 7 minutes walk away from the house of Anne Frank. There was no hatred towards Germans or ***** from Dr Stern. He, as a Jew, does not hold a shread of hatred for the arab nations who fire rockets into Isreali-controlled land.
It is with this that a truly moving and enlightening day ended, leaving myself with a greater understanding of why genocide happens and how it builds, wanting to make a difference and not being scared to say no to hatred but also left me asking "have we learnt any lessons?"
On a day of rememberance I value the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives to protect and rescue victims, as a touchstone of the human capacity for good in the face of evil yet recognise that humankind is still scarred by the belief that race, religion, disability or sexuality make some people's lives worth less than others'. Genocide, antisemitism, racism, xenophobia and discrimination still continue. An estimated 6 million lives were lost during WWII on those beliefs, many more in more recent conflicts. I believe that we have lost too many lives and I will for one, do my best to do right to be right.
I have no interest in influencing anybodies views on politics, military campaigns or beliefs, just that I would like to share the experiences of my visit.
Should anyone be interested, the following links provide further information:
Untitled Document
www.aegistrust.org
www.gfh.org.il
Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Welcome to the Imperial War Museum
I have the strongest feelings towards those who were responsible for the Holocaust and the dreadful treatment which was meted out to the Jews and the other political prisoners who also suffered at the hands of Hitler's regime. I am not Jewish but I hate the thought of a repressive government and also such treatment to the people of any nation.
The trouble is, such vicious behaviour can be experienced anywhere in the world as we have seen and do see at the moment. Your point about the future is well made. We all must keep an open mind and try to avoid walking into such a situation ever again. Man's inhumanity to man exists still and there are many examples to be seen today.
Les
28 January 2009, 11:12 AM
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Great post but I really am struggling to think of anything positive to write in reply. I can see why people dont want these tragic events to be forgot but I dont see what good it does by having committies to talk about them etc.
Many great films out at the minute about the Holocaust etc. Always find it interesting to watch, Going on holiday on Friday and Im currently looking to find Anne Franks Diary for some reading
Many great films out at the minute about the Holocaust etc. Always find it interesting to watch, Going on holiday on Friday and Im currently looking to find Anne Franks Diary for some reading
28 January 2009, 11:18 AM
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Things like this should never be forgotten however history always seems to repeat itself, with examples from Cambodia, Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia springing to mind.
What I still can't explain though - and this may well be in the wrong thread - is that the Jews have always been treated badly, culminating with the holocaust yet the state of Israel is now itself seen as a pretty good oppressor. It's treatment of Palastinian civillians seems inappropriate at best.
Steve
What I still can't explain though - and this may well be in the wrong thread - is that the Jews have always been treated badly, culminating with the holocaust yet the state of Israel is now itself seen as a pretty good oppressor. It's treatment of Palastinian civillians seems inappropriate at best.
Steve
28 January 2009, 11:58 AM
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I've been to Aushwitz, it is a humbling experience and something everyone should do but things won't change unless countries like Isreal take a little of their own advice.
5t.
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28 January 2009, 01:23 PM
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28 January 2009, 03:42 PM
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I appreciate some of you may think it as a very serious topic, and it is. It realy made me think about how we treat each other, how we take things for granted and how easily everything we value and possess could be taken away from us.
Indeed it does, Les. From simple name-calling the situation escalates.
Name calling becomes exclusion, the exclusion leads to hatred and the hatred ultimately leads to murder/genocide.
Even in the last few years we have seen in the UK murders happen to members of the travelling community in Liverpool, where a Johnny Delaney, a young boy, was murdered just because of who he was. In London, a gay man was murdered by two straight men who wanted to beat up a gay person for being gay, and in Lancashire, a man was killed by two people who decided to beat him up as he was different due to having learning difficulties.
I feel it was nicely summed up by Yehuda Bauer who said
I won't take offence from your question. And should I ever see you in trouble, I will note see it as a joke, but I shall do as much as I can to stop whatever the situation is.
But to answer your question. They did indeed. They actually supplied us with a buffet which was more than we were expecting. It did feel humbling to have a such a feast given to us, by a charity for free, when it is there to remind us of the suffering of the people remanded in the transit/concentration/death camps.
I doubt many of the people imprisoned/murdered enjoyed what we did at the event which included:
Salmon fillets,
Sliced beef,
Apple, banana, grape and pears,
Chocolate,
Brown and white bread,
Fresh salad,
Cheesecake and meringues.
Unlimited tea, coffee and soft drinks.
Andy Sykes who did the BNP exposé told us of how when he visited one camp in Germany, on the way out he turned to Dr Stern and said "I can't wait to get back to the hotel - I'm starving" at which Dr Sturn looked at him and said "Starving? You are not starving until you have lost more than half of your body weight and have turned to eating grass". Andy apologised and trudged back towards the bus in the cold when he then put his foot back ib his mouth saying he was freezing and thus inviting Dr Sturn to remind him of the many people who would have no shoes and he thinnest of uniforms, but would be out in the snow and ice for hours at a time.
I hope that answer is satisfactory to your question.
Hotel Rwanda is a great example, Dave. The UN were there, they could see what was going on and when George Bush Sr saw the report, he simply wrote in the border "Not on my watch". At this point the UN were allowed to take measures.
I think it is a simple case of using the comittees to educate rather than just talk about the atrocities of the past.
This is a valid comment which I respect you having. I won't go in to the rights and wrongs of each side on this thread. At the event, when asked if he hated anyone, particularly the *****, Dr Stern answered quite simply "No". He explained that nothing would be acheived if he hated Germans/***** and even as a Jew, he says he cannot hate the Palestinian civilians or militia that are firing rockets at fellow jews. Again, I think the message is pretty much the same - stand up to hatred, whoever you are and how little you think you may achieve, if we stand up at grass roots level, we can stop the loss of life occurring.
If asked why I'd stand up, I can only say it's because I believe it is the right thing to do. Andy Sykes was asked "Why did you stand up against the BNP when you have a wife and child?" His answer "Because I have a wife and child".
Sorry my two posts are a bit long, but as I said, this topic has really opened my eyes to not just the past history but also to what the future holds.
The trouble is, such vicious behaviour can be experienced anywhere in the world as we have seen and do see at the moment. Your point about the future is well made. We all must keep an open mind and try to avoid walking into such a situation ever again. Man's inhumanity to man exists still and there are many examples to be seen today.
Les
Les
Name calling becomes exclusion, the exclusion leads to hatred and the hatred ultimately leads to murder/genocide.
Even in the last few years we have seen in the UK murders happen to members of the travelling community in Liverpool, where a Johnny Delaney, a young boy, was murdered just because of who he was. In London, a gay man was murdered by two straight men who wanted to beat up a gay person for being gay, and in Lancashire, a man was killed by two people who decided to beat him up as he was different due to having learning difficulties.
I feel it was nicely summed up by Yehuda Bauer who said
Never be victim, never be a perpetrator and never, never be a bystander.
But to answer your question. They did indeed. They actually supplied us with a buffet which was more than we were expecting. It did feel humbling to have a such a feast given to us, by a charity for free, when it is there to remind us of the suffering of the people remanded in the transit/concentration/death camps.
I doubt many of the people imprisoned/murdered enjoyed what we did at the event which included:
Salmon fillets,
Sliced beef,
Apple, banana, grape and pears,
Chocolate,
Brown and white bread,
Fresh salad,
Cheesecake and meringues.
Unlimited tea, coffee and soft drinks.
Andy Sykes who did the BNP exposé told us of how when he visited one camp in Germany, on the way out he turned to Dr Stern and said "I can't wait to get back to the hotel - I'm starving" at which Dr Sturn looked at him and said "Starving? You are not starving until you have lost more than half of your body weight and have turned to eating grass". Andy apologised and trudged back towards the bus in the cold when he then put his foot back ib his mouth saying he was freezing and thus inviting Dr Sturn to remind him of the many people who would have no shoes and he thinnest of uniforms, but would be out in the snow and ice for hours at a time.
I hope that answer is satisfactory to your question.
Great post but I really am struggling to think of anything positive to write in reply. I can see why people dont want these tragic events to be forgot but I dont see what good it does by having committies to talk about them etc.
Many great films out at the minute about the Holocaust etc. Always find it interesting to watch, Going on holiday on Friday and Im currently looking to find Anne Franks Diary for some reading
Many great films out at the minute about the Holocaust etc. Always find it interesting to watch, Going on holiday on Friday and Im currently looking to find Anne Franks Diary for some reading
I think it is a simple case of using the comittees to educate rather than just talk about the atrocities of the past.
Things like this should never be forgotten however history always seems to repeat itself, with examples from Cambodia, Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia springing to mind.
What I still can't explain though - and this may well be in the wrong thread - is that the Jews have always been treated badly, culminating with the holocaust yet the state of Israel is now itself seen as a pretty good oppressor. It's treatment of Palastinian civillians seems inappropriate at best.
Steve
What I still can't explain though - and this may well be in the wrong thread - is that the Jews have always been treated badly, culminating with the holocaust yet the state of Israel is now itself seen as a pretty good oppressor. It's treatment of Palastinian civillians seems inappropriate at best.
Steve
If asked why I'd stand up, I can only say it's because I believe it is the right thing to do. Andy Sykes was asked "Why did you stand up against the BNP when you have a wife and child?" His answer "Because I have a wife and child".
Sorry my two posts are a bit long, but as I said, this topic has really opened my eyes to not just the past history but also to what the future holds.
28 January 2009, 03:49 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the **** rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
When the ***** came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out
When the ***** came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 January 2009 at 03:50 PM.
28 January 2009, 03:52 PM
#16
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Andy Sykes who did the BNP exposé told us of how when he visited one camp in Germany, on the way out he turned to Dr Stern and said "I can't wait to get back to the hotel - I'm starving" at which Dr Sturn looked at him and said "Starving? You are not starving until you have lost more than half of your body weight and have turned to eating grass". Andy apologised and trudged back towards the bus in the cold when he then put his foot back ib his mouth saying he was freezing and thus inviting Dr Sturn to remind him of the many people who would have no shoes and he thinnest of uniforms, but would be out in the snow and ice for hours at a time.
I Am So Starving vs. I Am So Starving | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Remember reading it years ago and thinking it made a great point.
5t.
28 January 2009, 10:33 PM
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Flame suit on..
I always read these threads and do my best not to reply,being a realist I'm under no illusion that we can change what has already happened.
People keep harking back to what happened,but what about what's happening now.
It's easy to say how you bad you feel about what happened and how you wish you could have done something about it...what about doing something about what's happening how?the things our grandchildren and future generations will reflect on.
You can hate the ****'s and I'm pretty sure Germans will feel ashamed for what their relatives did.
A lesson learned..no,it's still going on and the worst culprits are killing their own people,lets ignore it 'till it stops then we can say how bad it was again,or lets try and do something about it.
We cannnot bring anybody back but we may be able to stop more innocents dying,that's what matters the most not history,not what we couldn't do.
A friend has a house in the Gambia (
) and he's seen first hand the tribal leaders(
) selling the Oxfam goods off of stalls,will he give to charity...
I know it's not the same but its all about the oppression and exploitation of the weak by the strong.
If I've offended anybody..well I don't know what to say but I have an opinion and that's it really...cheers.
I always read these threads and do my best not to reply,being a realist I'm under no illusion that we can change what has already happened.
People keep harking back to what happened,but what about what's happening now.
It's easy to say how you bad you feel about what happened and how you wish you could have done something about it...what about doing something about what's happening how?the things our grandchildren and future generations will reflect on.
You can hate the ****'s and I'm pretty sure Germans will feel ashamed for what their relatives did.
A lesson learned..no,it's still going on and the worst culprits are killing their own people,lets ignore it 'till it stops then we can say how bad it was again,or lets try and do something about it.
We cannnot bring anybody back but we may be able to stop more innocents dying,that's what matters the most not history,not what we couldn't do.
A friend has a house in the Gambia (
) and he's seen first hand the tribal leaders( ) selling the Oxfam goods off of stalls,will he give to charity...I know it's not the same but its all about the oppression and exploitation of the weak by the strong.
If I've offended anybody..well I don't know what to say but I have an opinion and that's it really...cheers.
Last edited by urdad; 28 January 2009 at 10:35 PM. Reason: ..spell checker not working or key board is broken ;>)
29 January 2009, 01:36 AM
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This kind of coment winds me up to be honest, by mentioning the Palestinians and ***** in the same sentence he is bascially indicating they are comparable and should be disliked. He also does the usual Israeli trick of trying to ignore any distinction between, palestinian militias fighting a brutal occupying army with penchant for killing children, and normal palestinians who are just trying to survive. If he was really that interested in standing up to hatred I would love to know what steps he has taken to support the families of palestinian children murdered by the IDF.
29 January 2009, 09:53 AM
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ScoobyWon't - nice one - your response was spot on!
Distant relatives of mine were Jews and some got killed so although I might sound daft about it, it does strike a chord.
Distant relatives of mine were Jews and some got killed so although I might sound daft about it, it does strike a chord.
29 January 2009, 11:53 AM
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The Holocaust was terrible crime perpetrated by the *****, but pails in comparison to what the Russians or Chinese suffered.
We don't have "Siege of LeninGrad" day, "Nankin Massacre" day or other such things. Lots of people suffered during the war, and not just at the hands of the *****, why is so much attention given to this?
The Japanese systematically murdered over 30 million people, the Germans about 33 million, the Russians an indeterminate number, but still in the millions.
It's time we moved on. I'm sure the millions of Rwandans who lost their lives, or hundreds of thousands in the old Baltic states must feel that these centres really made a difference.
Geezer
We don't have "Siege of LeninGrad" day, "Nankin Massacre" day or other such things. Lots of people suffered during the war, and not just at the hands of the *****, why is so much attention given to this?
The Japanese systematically murdered over 30 million people, the Germans about 33 million, the Russians an indeterminate number, but still in the millions.
It's time we moved on. I'm sure the millions of Rwandans who lost their lives, or hundreds of thousands in the old Baltic states must feel that these centres really made a difference.
Geezer
29 January 2009, 01:17 PM
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In defence of the likes of DR Martin Stern he has campaigned to get international action in darfur and Rwanda and seems to have a real issue with the lack of international actions in those places. He also had much to say about the srebecna massacre of muslims in yugoslavia so at least he seems to live up to alot of what he says.
I do think it strange though how little attention is paid to the 60 milion who died under Mao and the horrors commited in china and cambodia. People in asia seem much better educated about Europes atrocities than we are about theirs. Is it natural that we care more about things closer to home ?
If so why do we hear more about Rwanda than Yugoslavia ? Is it becuase there is no film about the evils perpetrated by the people there ?
I also think more Jewish people need speak up against the atrocities commited by Israel, if they want to mention crimes against humanity during ww2 then it seems a little strange to stay silent about the nation that seems to be deliberately killing children.
I do think it strange though how little attention is paid to the 60 milion who died under Mao and the horrors commited in china and cambodia. People in asia seem much better educated about Europes atrocities than we are about theirs. Is it natural that we care more about things closer to home ?
If so why do we hear more about Rwanda than Yugoslavia ? Is it becuase there is no film about the evils perpetrated by the people there ?
I also think more Jewish people need speak up against the atrocities commited by Israel, if they want to mention crimes against humanity during ww2 then it seems a little strange to stay silent about the nation that seems to be deliberately killing children.
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