David Lock

Is there a technology available that the Israelis could use to track and shoot down some of the rockets that Hamas are firing over the border?

The obvious answer is no or else they would be using them. But hardware is increasingly sophisticated these days so I wondered. May be the rockets are too small to detect or there are too many of them?

dl

what would scooby do

It's not cost effective to shoot down their cheap rockets.

Best bet is to destroy them on the ground with a bit of collateral thrown in.

Simon C

Yes, in a simple answer. The Nato forces used it in the Yugoslav states. Basically its a radar that picks up the projectile but must track it in 2 places to work out its firing point.

Think 2 points on a porabala and extrapolate from those 2 points.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

[Edit to say - see Simon C's post for the considerably less wordy answer than mine!]

Yip, there are numerous counter-battery fire radars produced which are capable of locating the point of origin, flight path of a projectile, and by extension a probable point of impact - although the warning given by these radars is pretty much dependent on the type of weapon being fired; obvoiusly the smaller the rocket, the shorter the range, the less time it will be in the air - so the less time the radar system has to detect, compute and plot. It is also possible to use weapons such as the Phalanx ClWS to track, and neutralise (i.e. blow up) rockets/missiles whilst still airborne. See YouTube - Phalanx (CIWS) Block 1B LPWS Testing and Firing however, the use of these systems in such a way is still in early days and it can be a bit hit and miss. Plus you have the added issue of having to fire 1000's of 7.62mm or larger calibre bullets "over that way" and having no real idea where they'll end up landing - obviously potentially causing unintended casualties.

I haven't seen any information regarding what types or size of rockets Hamas are using or have stocks of - but generally, looking at the number of deaths being caused , I'd expect them to in the region of 122mm to 155mm (Chinese designed 155mm rockets are a weapon of choice for insurgent groups in Iraq and Afghanistan). Due to the need for Hamas to fire weapons and protect their weapons teams from Israeli air strikes - I'd *guess* that they'd set some of these rockets up (they're easily man portable over short distances) on an improvised metal frame/bank of earth, and connect them to a timer with an electrical source such as a car battery. This allows the device to fire without them being anywhere near it.

Reports I've seen of Hamas having systems such as Fajr-3, mostly in the US press, are laughable - with the sort of total air dominance that the IDF enjoys, any large short range ballistic missile system would have a life span measured in single digit minutes if it ever went into the open to fire.

So yes, you can track them, you can shoot them down - but its not 100% by any means.

Err.. hope that kinda answers the questions.

jacrobat

Probably a combination of too small, too fast, too erratic, too many and too expensive. There is probably, also, a political calculation that preventing them firing rockets will lead Hamas to return to suicide bombing that leads to much higher Israeli casualties.

what would scooby do

I think David was asking about in flight shoot downs rather than tracking launch sites ?

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Oh - and as regards to numbers fired - you're probably looking at about 4 rockets per-salvo tops at any particular area. If they're concentrating on a particular location they can obviously up this number with more firing teams from different positions.

Regardless, don't consider it to be a WW1 style artillery barrage - it won't be anything of the short.. it'll be - "whooosh, whooosh, whoosh, bang, bang, bang" and that's about it.

what would scooby do

Didn't they have them a while back though IIRC ?

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

The reports said they had them. Not wanting to doubt our journalistic friends they might have been getting confused with Hezbollah who's operating area lends a bit more to using rockets such as the Fajr-3. But the Gaza Strip is so small, I couldn't conceive how they'd operate such systems with them having any survivability at all - I'd be amazed if they were even alive long enough to launch.

You can have four chinese rockets set up on a bodged metal rail, with the timing and firing pack, taken off the back of a pick-up in under 5 minutes with a well drilled crew. A Fajr-3 is 19 foot long, almost a foot in diameter, with a 100lb warhead alone, I've no idea how much a Fajr-3 weighs in total - but as a comparison, the rockets for the American MLRS system that British Army uses weigh in the region of 700lbs - and they're only 13 foot long with a similar size warhead and a shorter range. You've got to have a dedicated launcher for it, with all the associated bits and bobs. I just don't think Hamas, unlike Hezbollah, has that kind of military capability.

David Lock

Many thanks for the informative replies chaps.

Just listening to the general commentary about the situation it would seem that the No 1 priority for the Israelis is to stop the continuous rocket attacks. And unless they do they will be deemed to have failed. Well they haven't so far and I can't see that they will on anything like a permanent basis. And they are starting to lose the propaganda war now they have started bombing families to eliminate senior Hamas personnel. And their actions seem to result is more support for Hamas.

So if there was another way to eliminate a majority of the rockets......

dl

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

The rockets arn't that much of a deal to be honest - I'm sure they are a few other people on here in addition to myself who've experienced indirect fire and will agree that, most of the time, and depending if you or one of your mates gets hit, its nothing other than a bloody annoyance.

I haven't seen figures regarding the numbers of rockets being fired, but, on any given area; I'm sure it's probably less than certain coalition bases in Iraq have experienced at times. It would be interesting to know exactly how "continuous" they are, and what areas they are being aimed (accuracy of a 155mm rocket fired at maximum range is in the hundreds of metres - these are meant as area weapons fired in mass salvos of hundreds, if not thousands, at a time) - plotted against Israeli settlements within range and the location of IDF ground forces. I'm very curious over exactly how bad these rocket attacks are; but its in neither sides interest to show how ineffective they are.

David Lock

My understanding - from a biased (?) Western press is that Hamas would be firing say 50 - 100 rockets a day which would reach border towns although they now seem to have longer range jobs. Even now they are firing 50 odd per day. Very few actually reach any worthwhile targets and relatively few, a handful or so, of Israelis have been killed. In fact a recent rocket killed one person, ironically an Arab working in Israel.
But is the not the number killed it's the worry factor that has the Israeli population up in arms. I must say that if I lived in one of those border towns I wouldn't sleep that soundly

dl

Leslie

I agree with that. It does not matter so much how many rockets, but the fact that they are being fired at all and there is always the chance that your name might be on the next one.

I too would be feeling a bit worried.

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well maybe if Israel's wonderful population would vote in a government not hellbent on taking a hard line over and over again and one that would actually not stay stupid things about a Jew's life being worth that of a hundred Arabs and one that would actually be prepared to sit at a negotiating table with the Palestinians they would be able to sleep more soundly in their beds. Just an alternative point of view people

Luke

You have to love them !!! At least Israelis are proud and will fight for their country. My money is on them . The palestinians are not so "required" in this world. The jews are major players and have done their best. Rich and powerful They rose from the ashes almost . 2 wrongs wont make a right but its not the world really cares what happens to the palestinians. we should only care if Israel gets 'funky" with Iran etc. then ist going to get very very interesting to see the full might of Israel and who takes their side.

mart360

Give them a 24 hour window,

Clear the strip, then nuke it totally, make it the most radioactive strip of

land ever then no one can have it


mart

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

They voted for what they wanted, a free and democratic vote too.......................just like us with Tony Bliar and Gorgon Brown!

GC8

Youre a genius.

Luke

you have never been to the Gaza have you. you try to empty that place if you can !

as i said..... if the other Arabs where so "brotherly" then they could offer them some land . But its not about land or people. you give the palestinians gaza back and it will still kick off again.

Now here is a "twist" Do you really think for one min the worlds Jewish community care about Israel??? well i dont. they dont need a "Home". they are happy where they are and leave Israel and its problems to the Israelis.

i know many Jews that dont have any wish to go to Israel nor would they fight for it.

Now ..... if this involved the worlds jewish community and its money then yes....... America will help.

what would scooby do

Israeli ground forces have now moved in.. phase 2..

Luke

not worried yet.... Israel will just be flexing its muscles. there will be a few clues just before Israel decides its had enough And i am lucky to know one of them .when my ex Inlaws call and say its "time" then i i will let you know if possible.One certain US Air Force base will go on full alert for sure and they live RIGHT next door to it. The USA will have all its electronics watching israel just in case they decide not to tell the yanks. The USA will go nuts in the middle east areas just before full on air strike against Iran etc

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

........and I was trying to keep my answers on this thread of a purely technical and military nature - I thought the other thread was doing a fine job of dissecting the political situation.

I did hear an Arab correspondent BBC News 24 today report that Hamas were using Katyusha rockets - which "usually" indicates the use of rockets meant for the BM-21 Grad Multiple Launch Rocket System. BM-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (wiki link but all the information is pretty much on the ball).

I will stand by my opinion that Israel is milking the "threat" of these attacks for all they're worth. I'm not suggesting they are pleasant, but in the grand scheme of things and all that.. this isn't Surrey after all. The number of the rockets being fired into the border areas, against probable targets leaves a fairly small saturation level.

It's certainly a fairly low risk living on the Israeli side of the border with the odd 60 to 70lb warhead popping in now and again compared to the 1000lb warheads going off in one of the most densely populated areas of the planet in Gaza. I know which side I'd be sitting on if I was to choose based on threat.

Luke

not milking as much as the Americans and UK did about the danger of Iraq and its weapons !!

cant blame Israel for any "milking" they do. its war and its messy. both sides must do what they think is right, we get to watch and all become armchair experts !

what would scooby do

Batman?

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I always struggle on this topic. Israel gets such a bad press over things, but at the end of the day they are just defending their country. It does not matter how many rockets are coming over, Hamas are attacking them.

Hard to work out what a proportional response should be.

Luke

no !!

But a key strike base in eastern turkey just outside Adana

cster

The safest place to be is always on the fence

what would scooby do

İncirlik then..

Luke

if i was in charge of Israel i would offer 1 option only

1: Hamas stops. if not they will force out the palestinians and flatten the gaza for good. No more electrics or water.
then force the palestinians away from the area . ok... they might get a few more attacks , but by this time the Palestinians will be wary of hamas. the Israelis need to educate the average man about the dangers of hamas and its 'friends" who want to play games.

what ever i am glued to the TV when it kicks off

Luke

yes.

but for America i think they will only go to a "secure" status where if Israel does attack ,the yanks wont follow but along with others will wait to see if they need to secure "concerns " in Eastern europe or the middle east . i doubt we will see them attacking alongside the Israelis.