Bubba po

Now, I don't know whether we've had a specific thread on SN that deals with the arguments and counter-arguments for these two positions, but I thought it might be a good thing to do after watching a few videos on youtube entitled "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists".

The two positions are essentially this:

1: All living organisms have a shared ancestry and are inter-related; Similarities between organisms now and those observed through time in fossil evidence and the study of DNA show that all life evolved from a single ancestor, with a pattern of branching that IN PRINCIPLE can be exactly discerned. The complex organs possessed by organisms, such as eyes, ears, circulatory systems, brains that can comprehend such ideas etc. have been evolved from less complex precursors by the process of natural selection.

2. All life was created by a supernatural being, and all the similarities between organisms that we observe are mere coincidences that can be attributed to the idea that the same designer was responsible for all. Complex organs which really do seem to have been designed for their purpose actually were designed by the creator.

Please try to keep the discussion on topic and try not to insult each other.

fast bloke

OK ya geriatric old fart

Hey - you should be old enough to know - when you were younger, did other people just appear, naked mostly, or did you hear a big massive noise, like a big bang?

Bubba po

I think I just heard a small ineffectual noise, like a wet trump.

boxst

Although aimed at the masses, Terry Pratchett's book is actually very informative: The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Creationism in its most extreme doesn't make any sense at all (i.e. all animals are purpose built). I can live with (although sadly don't believe) that a supreme being created the startings and then evolution took over.

Steve

Bubba po

Hypothetically, given that you don't believe anyway, how far back in the process might the supreme being have intervened to get the process going, boxst?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Well I'm not too clued up on scientific stuff,or religious for that matter, so personally I don't have a strong view on 'how it all began'.

However, I have known a fair few religious/creationists who somewhat support the theory of evolution whilst still following their other views. I guess it depends on how literally they take the theory of creation. In terms of the bible story, there are many who will believe it word for word, yet, others take it more to be a timeline of events, not literally days as we now know them.

Who are we to say a day, way back when, was the same amount of time/hours as now, I don't know. But regardless of whether days were different or this was used as a representation of events, is anyones guess. However, if we take away the timescale, and look at how everything has progressed from the first point, the two theories could kind of go hand in hand.

Admittedly, this could be an attempt by creationists, to justify their belief, within a scientific field of play, but it's not maybe silly to see how it could sort of go together.

On the other hand I could be just talking crap, then fair play, if you think that. It's late, and I'm not too clued up, so don't give me too hard a time.

boxst

And that is of course the question that keeps religious people up at night. It would have to be the startings of man (Adam and Eve I presume) to keep the Church happy.

Steve

fast bloke

Yep - That was me.... stinks a bit.

If creationism was the real reality - why would it include farts? Would they not smell of something that gets you a **** from your partner instead of a slap?

Bubba po

Funnily enough, geologists have deduced from the observation of growth patterns in fossil corals that the rotation and orbit of the Earth has slowed through time, so if owt, days and years have got longer through time.

More apropos of the question, though, I can't think how anyone could claim the literal truth of Genesis.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

I bloody well said I wasn't so clued up now on all that sort of stuff.

Ah but what says there hasn't been changes within time, growth or slow periods? I know nothing, but give me credit for trying to make something up.

Bubba po

I wholeheartedly agree. Furthermore, it would seem either very stupid or very insightful to include females in the population who approve of the whole "dutch oven" scenario.

Bubba po

Well, we all know time isn't a constant because Einstein tells us so, but it's constant enough within normal parameters (i.e. not at light speed or close to concentrations of infinite mass) to discount the idea that it stretches *****-nilly like a pair of woollen tights.

fast bloke

Dutch oven is only a half hearted effort. You have to SBD below the duvet, then hang your **** out and let go of a wet and wild one. Her indoors will try to hide from the wet and wild one buy pulling the duvet over her head. Self inflicted dutch oven beats standard dutch oven any day of the week


Anyway - enough farts (never) - How come religion has only been around for a few thousand years. Most of what creationists believe has only been around for a thousand or so years. How did they not find out about it in the preceding millions of years?

Bubba po

They did, but the lack of the invention of a waterproof tent caused all the documentation to get ruined.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Oh sod it, I had a go.

I'll leave any real attempt of an arguement to someone more capable.

Or I'll just go back to, it was a story to try and explain events, not in real time.

Bubba po

Sorry, Lisa, don't leave the thread. )Well, I'm going to because it's bedtime, but generally, stick around.) You seem like you're the kind of person that can pick holes in an argument, which is what the whole idea of argumentation is about.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Well I must join you, not together obviously, but it is getting late.

I do try to pick, not to argue though, that's not me, but I do like a good discussion. It keeps us decent people going. No need to offend, as you said, but healthy debate is a good thing, surely.

markr1963

Evolution for me. There's too much evidence that supports this. The series Galapagos is showing Down Under currently and does a fair job of describing Darwin's contributions.

I cannot believe that Earth is the only planet with sentient lifeforms - it's almost statistically impossible. Whether this is relevant to the OP's question, I'm not sure. But so far as the Universe is concerned does anyone remeber the series Cosmos hosted by Carl Sagan?

Anyway, I digress. As Boxst has said creationism taken to biblical extremes is, IMHO, nonsense. Though, I'll concede that may, in part, be down to being a 'fundamental atheist'

I do quite like the idea, as shown at the end of Men in Black, of our universe being one of many at the whim of something that likes to play marbles

TopBanana

Justgiving - Atheist Bus Campaign

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I have to go with the Evolution theory as I'm too much of a sceptic to believe in a supreme Biological Architect to put all life forms together in a great plan.

Just a snippet from the web (not Wiki):
A team from Colorado University, Boulder and Milan University has discovered forms of liquid crystals of ultra short nano DNA molecules that when immersed in water self orientate in parallel to each other and stack into columns. It is essentially impossible for molecular chains to spontaneously self select, chain up and self replicate in such a uniform way as DNA, so this was an unexpected discovery.
More on this here: New scenario for the beginning of life on Earth

This does seem to indicate a degree of spontaneity in the generation of life forms is possible.
Although the main drawback of these experiments would be the need to hang around for 60 million years to see the results!!

djmisio85

I believe in the theory of Creation.... Obviously evolution is a part of creation, people develop, just like cars.... like the mitsubishi evolution.....

BUT, how would you people who don't believe in creation, explain the existence of feelings..... Like why, when someone sees something sad, does a tear come out of the persons eyes?

TopBanana

Evolutionary advantage. If someone is visibly sad, they're more likely to get help from other people.

Uurrgghh!

Don't creationists say that the world was created 10,000 years ago? they do this buy counting lineage back through the bible till they get to Adam & Eve, so in their opinion nothing is more than 10,000 years old!

So what are dinosaur fossils then?

Bubba po

Obviously we have emotions because they are of adaptive benefit - that is to say, they are good for us. They cement our relationships, they motivate us etc. Where would humans be without feelings of pity and empathy? Historically humans lived in small, tightly-knit groups and strong feelings towards other members of your group were needed for the whole group to survive. Which meant in turn that your own genes were likely to survive into the next generation. Emotions, like binocular vision, upright walking and dexterous hands evolved because they helped our ancestors to survive and reproduce.

As to why we cry visible tears when upset, nobody really knows, but I bet that the explanation is somewhere along the lines of it being a visible sign of emotion that other humans can see and empathise with what you're going through.

There are many little mysteries like that.

djmisio85

I dont cry to be advantaged.... Like when I watch Titanic, what advantage do I have from crying? When I win an Olympic Gold medal, what advantage do I have from crying? Why does my stomach clench up when I see something sad.... I dont see any advantage of my stomach clenching up....

Uurrgghh!

Because you are a big girls blouse?

austinwrx

creationist's believe the world is about 4000 years old, or 6- I forget.

clearly everythign disproves that.

In addition- their theory is based on just one god...... whatabout all the other billions of people who have a totally different belief system- who is right ?

djmisio85

do people who follow the bible believe the world is about 4000 years old???

Does it say in the bible... 2000 odd years ago, before Jesus, the world was created???

Uurrgghh!

If you could be arsed you can trace back through "lineage" in the bible to Adam & Eve.

PeteBrant

What a complete waste of time - Every single thread that has ever gone into this subject ends up with anybody not conforming to the SN approved view of evolution being ridiculed and abused and treated as a ****ing idiot for beleiveing in a diety.

Why is this one going to be any different?

I happen not to believe in a supreme being. But I don't feel in any superior to someone who does. You fanatics that go into meltdown anytime someone mentions they might believe in god, are no better than the preachers that say non-beleiversd are going to burn in hell.

Rant over