LG John

I have been giving consideration lately to what I will do if playing poker is no longer an option for me. Boredom, changes in legislation, changes in the game dynamic or popularity, etc may all result in me wishing to return to the workplace. Moreover, my overriding goal when I quite my job to play poker was to attempt to climb to, and beat, the higher stakes levels and secure an average hourly win rate in the $1000's as opposed to $100's. This would allow mortgages to be paid within a few years or cars to be bought outright within a few months. So far I have failed to achieve such a win rate and it may well be beyond my ability to ever do so. I should therefore plan for the future!

I have a BSc (hons) in Town & Regional Planning but the thought of returning to planning in any form makes me sick to my stomach - it is simply of zero interest to me!

I am interested in working within the oil industry for a number of reasons and believe that I'd find the work interesting and challenging. The key benefits are that offshore posts usually pay more than enough to make a comfortable living and the compressed nature of the working would really suit my current circumstances. My mate currently works 2 weeks on, 3 weeks off in the North Sea and earns circa £52,000 pa. In a 2 and 3 arrangement I would have the option of earning a stable income on the rig but could continue to play poker semi-professionally during my onshore time - the best of both worlds!

At the moment I have completely flexible working hours and should be able to hive money off from poker gradually to pay for training. The question is what course(s) should I undertake to maximize my chances of gaining employment within the oil industry upon completion. I couldn't consider doing a full time course as I still have to play poker to earn, so my options are restricted to part-time or open learning. Obviously the last thing I want to do is commit time and money to getting a qualification that won't actually be of much use in getting me offshore or even an onshore post at Grangemouth. I'd therefore appreciate advice on what courses I should be looking at and what I can do to maximize my employability within the oil industry.

I have been looking at this Petroleum Processing Technology City & Guilds Certificate course with interest and my mate tells me that some of the guy on the rig are currently undertaking it. Does anyone in the know have any comments with regards to the course and whether the 'qualification' would actually be of any use to me?

Furthermore, are there any grants or government schemes that anyone knows of that might pay for - in part or full - the tuition fees. I'm in a bit of an "employment no-man's land" but I may be considered 'unemployed' or 'non-employed' and figure there could be some assistance available to me to undertake such a course. Again, advice appreciated from anyone in the know.

Finally, whilst I'd be prepared to do it for a while to get the experience, I wouldn't want to get a basic roustabout/labouring job off-shore in the long term as it just wouldn't hold my interest. If I retrain it's because I plan a life-long career in the industry supplemented by semi-professional poker player during onshore time.

Thanks in advance

TopBanana

There are probably some agencies that specialise in this stuff. Can't hurt to phone a couple up and pick their brains? Also, don't rule out gas.

LG John

Fair point - gas, petroleum....whatever. Happy to be involved in either or.

andy_s37

If you PM me your email address I will send you a proforma of what Shell are looking for in a CV before they will even interview you. I know this is at the refinery but atleast it will give you a heads up on what the Oil giants may be looking for.

Andy.

worley

This type of processing industry is rather competitive due to the obvious benefits and higher than average salaries. You would have to be extremely lucky to get in at a graduate level and then have a whole load of maths behind you to progress further - how is your maths?

It really depends on what type of job within the industry that you want to do. The course you have noticed is for all round experience and awareness of processes and calculations rather than actually being able to use it in a useful and safe form from day one - it might get a toe in the door.

Only gleeming what I can from your detailed post, in your place I would look at a technician's position with a view to evolving into a specialised engineering or supervisory role within five years.

Typical roles:

Instrument technician (always looking for these)
PLC or Networks technician (similar to above but specialised)
Electrical technician
Process Operator in various specialised roles
Safety or Quality co-ordinator role

Hope this helps.


Nik

LG John

Worley, would undertaking the course I linked stand me a snowballs chance in hell of getting one of the posts you mentioned. My fear with doing something ultra-specialized is that I'd find myself in a similar position to what I'm in now a year or so down the line. I have a planning degree but have no interested in planning in any form. I'd hate to do a course that would allow me to be an "Instrument Technician" only to get out on the rig and find that it doesn't suit or interest me and that I can't switch to any other post as my training is too specialist.

Logically it seems better to get a more general qualification that indicates a solid competency and understanding of the issues and processes faced on a day to day basis so that I could potentially be placed in and trained (on the job) in one of a number of roles. Furthermore, I may at a future time be able to guide my career towards different roles as opposed to being pigeon holed.

It's crucial that if I undertake a course and attempt to get a job that I find it stimulating and worthwhile. In theory I can probably make £2-5k a month tax free most months sitting clicking a computer screen so it's important that I do something I REALLY want to do if I start working again so that the benefits of a stimulating job plus a supplemental part-time poker income outweigh just smashing through hands day-after-day and year-after-year.

worley

SB, taking the course will provide you with a good orientation of this particular part of the industry. Alone, it will not get you a job. However, it will give you some awareness and get you in contact with other industry members and provide a basis for further training decisions. The risk that you are fully aware of is that it might not inspire you to continue to persue a job with one of the oil companies - time and money lost etc.

My view is that you can specialise in a trade for any industry (eg instrument tech or alike) and aim for one of the more lucrative companies whereby hours and salary can be tailored to your poker needs.

For my reference, have you ever been on a chemical or oil/gas production site before?


Nik

PS have been following your poker playing, keep up the good work.

LG John

No, I haven't been on a chemical oil/gas site before.

What further courses training is likely to be involved. Again, I want to go into this eyes open - I don't want to commit to a 9-12 month course costing £1500 to then find that in order to get even a basic 'foot in the door' job I have to undertake another X months/years and Y £'s worth of courses, etc.

I'm happy to commit considerable time and resource to new study in order to launch a new career however anything even close to the work commitment involved in a uni degree is out of the question. I've done 4 years of uni, hand-in's, exams, reading, constant study, etc and I'm simply not prepared to go through that level of study again. Simply put if I did have to do a full-time 2-4 year course to stand a chance of getting a job that time resource applied to my poker would likely result in a win-rate well in excess of any hourly rate in any off-shore position so I might as well do that! (boring as it would be!)

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a point where the time/money/resource required to retrain is no longer worth it. I'm trying to figure out where that point is? All I know is that my friend says he's one of the few people he works beside on the rig that has a full 4-year Mechanical Engineering degree so it must be possible to secure posts with less training/commitment to learning. Besides, surely it's the type of job where rocking up tooled up to the eyeballs with knowledge would be of little advantage in comparison to someone who has no such knowledge but has done a few rotations on the job?

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

SB, my tip is to get yourself into the Nuclear industry, Amec, who I work for were reportedly after 700 extra employees to server the Nuclear industry, you dont have to be a physicist either, there are loads of trades required.

I think Oil and Gas is around for a while yet but the North Sea fields are drying up, the big boys are selling out to lower cost operators who can make it viable but the writing is on the wall.

TopBanana

Good point, nuclear is going to grow massively in this country. Might help if you know any French

worley

Spot-on about the comment on experience Vs qualifications, it's better to employ someone with the ability to adapt and learn rather than being technical without the knowledge to apply it.

I would suggest that to gain acceptable employment in the industry (salary and social wise according to your needs) that you will need three years of part-time training in a site specific role and then a bit of luck. You could maybe approach a safety role in a slightly shorter time eg complete your NEBOSH cert and Diploma in a short space of time.

This link might help

Scottish Joint Industry Board

I might also be able to help with a site visit to an industrial gases complex, but cannot promise anything.


Nik

SiPie

Classic.....

Not even 3 months married and already wanting to leave and work offshore










PS On a more serious note, good luck Kenny if you choose to go for it

LG John

LOL, only problem is I suspect an oil rig might be a big of a sausage fest

DaveMiddleton

Drop me a pm and you can call me. My advice MAY help as I have now over 30 years of involvement in the upstream (drilling ) side of the Oil Industry and still find it as rewarding and interesting as when I began way back in the mid 70's. Even then it allowed me to get my first Porsche 911 by my 21st.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Fancy being a diver? Get your SAT tickets and your laughing.

The Underwater Centre :: Careers in Commercial Diving

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Dont want to spoil your illusions, but they do have ladies on the Rigs you know.

Mitchy260

SB...As someone in the offshore O+G industry myself (Luckily onshore in Aberdeen) I can offer you quite a bit of info...(It's a long post )

1) Most oil companies are 2wks on 2wks off pattern, some are on a 2 and 3 but the employees usually take a drop in salary for the extra leave. Also, do not believe what they say they earn, people on rigs often exaggerate what they earn for some reason. I think it's because people onshore expect them to earn a lot but when they don't, they exaggerate to make what they are doing as being good and worthwhile. I've come across many of these types of workers before in my time in Aberdeen. I work very closely with the offshore workers and i'm often being told of hyperinflated salaries. 1 guy told me he was earning £50k as a roustabout with company X. When i looked at the companies payscales, roustabout with company X was earning £25k. They bullshi* like there is no tomorrow.

General labourers, guys with no engineering experience/qualifications etc can get a job offshore as a roustabout. They are the lowest on the ladder and salaries are in the region of £25k for 2wks on 2wks off. These are the real grafters, the guys at the bottom, just like labourers on a building site.

The next step up is roughneck and the salary then increases to around £30-£35k.
Then derrickmen/driller etc going up about £5-10k each time all the way upto OIM (Installation manager - Guy that controls the rig and all the people on it) and he earns ITRO £100k

This is the drilling side of things.

Then there are the engineers and all the other supporting workers, the mechanical engineers, the electricians, the instrumentation techs etc that are on their own company payscales. Salaries do generally tend to be ITRO of £40-60k for guys in these roles. Then you have subsea, the ROV pilots/techs etc that earn similar amounts.

Good money is to be made in the self employed game though with some jobs paying £500-£800 per day, but you may only get a handful of these 2wk contracts a year. For security just like it is onshore, you're better being fully employed with a company, that way you are guaranteed work.

Wide range of jobs to do.

2) Consider how good the usual 2wks on 2wks off system really is! 6 months of the year off sounds great but write it down on paper and you'll be quite surprised....

Typical onshore worker... 37.5hrs pw for 46wks of the year. Take off his weekends(46x 5) Typical 230 days in work.
Offshore worker... 26wks of the year (26x7) 182 days in work.

So straight away a 48day difference. Sounds good to me

Break it down into the hours worked though and it more than sorts itself out, well in favour of the onshore worker...

Onshore 37.5hrs pw x 46 = 1725hrs pa
Offshore 84hrs pw x 26 = 2184hrs pa

Or quite simply, In the 2wks on, you have worked 168hrs compared to the 75hrs of the onshore worker. Even if you were to extrapolate this over the 4wks its still 168hrs vs 150hrs.

So you work for your money and on a less hourly rate than you would think in comparison to onshore worker.

3) Probably the info you want to know..How easy it is it to get offshore??

Difficult, infact very difficult unless you know faces in the right places. Oil/servicing companies 99% of the time want experienced guys that have been offshore before, they really dont like(or want to train in better words) new 'recruits'. They receive thousands of CV's sent into them every month, some guys i know have spent years and upto £15k on all the courses under the sun trying to get a job with an oil company, only to never hear anything back. There's a guy downstairs infact that has been trying for over 6yrs now to get offshore with no luck.

The drilling side, going in at the bottom as a roustabout, they generally are the guys that dont have a GCSE between them..thick as 2 planks. Not all of them of course as you'll get the guys that are clever and want to work from the bottom up through the ranks, but generally most of them are well not very well educated, from poor backgrounds etc.

If you have an onshore engineering background, it's a little easier but again they are flooded with CV's, only a tiny proportion ever get to the interview stage.

If you don't have any onshore experience engineering wise, i would probably say dont waste your time and effort on courses trying to get on as you'll have no chance.

RGIT and medical + hotel in Aberdeen for the week can cost you £1500. This is a must for 99.99999% of the oil companies to have on the CV. If you don't have this, your CV will no doubt end up in the bin. It's a must have and a legal requirement for offshore workers. Then there are numerous other courses that cost quite a bit, greenhand, crane op etc

Can turn out pretty expensive for no end result. If you log on to oilcareers.com and type in trainee, i doubt you'll find any jobs at all. If you've not been offshore before you are just that, a trainee in any field.

It's difficult is all ill say

4) Then there is the quality of life, 6 months at home doing sod all sounds great, but 6 months in the middle of the N.Sea is absoloutley soul destroying, the days are very long, it's 95% male populated, there is nothing to do and all you do whilst you're out there is count the days down until the chopper comes to pick you up. Then there is the boredom, the cramped living conditions, lack of privacy, the danger.

Yes, i was offshore for about 12months, never ever again. Luckily an onshore company rescued me and gave me a similar pay deal to what i was getting offshore. I think i dropped around £4kpa when i moved back to onshore work.

Family life definitely suffers, another reason i gave it up was the birth of my son.

Pay is generally quite good but as above, £40k salary offshore for 2184hrs work only works out at £18.31 an hour before taxation. You can earn similar in a decent paid onshore job without all the downfalls of above.

It's not all rosey but it gives you something to think about from a different point of view about the industry. I would say okay if you are single but only for a short time period 3-5yrs max.

There's more to life than being stuck 150 miles off the coastline knocking your pan in

SiPie

Well done Mitchy260 for taking the time to write that all down in that post...

The one good remaining about SN being the people who are prepared to help other members just like that

EddScott

Can I slightly hijack this and ask about onshore refinery or LNG work?

I live near Milford Haven and have been thinking about getting onto one of the refineries for a while. My wifes uncle is a pipe fitter for Chevron and earns reasonable money although his is spent in maintenance payments and booze.

My neighbour works on the LNG site and is on a rota type basis although I don't really know the guy well enough to ask him.

It stems from chatting to my wifes uncle whilst fixing his PC. He said I could look into either electrical engineering or something in the IT department. I've got ONC engineering qualification and HNC Business IT. I've spent the last 10 years in finance and don't like it. I like mending and building stuff and computer fiddling.

LG John

Agree with Simon, that was outstanding and the kind of honest post I was looking for Mitchy

I had already crunched numbers on the hours thing and figured for myself that my friend working his 2/3 shift pattern is actually putting in roughly as many or slightly more hours per year than someone on 37.5h a week with 30 days annual leave! Factor in that during his off-time he's stuck on a rig in the middle of the North Sea and it's not overly appealing. I at least had my eyes open with regards to the hours issue. I also calculated his after tax/ni salary to factor out to just under £20 per hour worked. Since Oct 2007 my win-rate at poker has been approximately $50 and at an average exchange rate of around 0.51 that's £5.5 more than him per hour. The crucial difference is the stability of his fixed income; he can get mortgages and loans no problem, can have a 'bad' two weeks on the rig and still gets paid the same, etc, etc.

I guess I was hoping to get the best of both worlds whereby I have the stable fixed income and all the benefits that go with it and also the free time when on-shore to play many hours of poker. However, Mitchy's post raises something I had considered: you talk about knackering your pan in off-shore for two weeks and how soul destroying it is. I can't help but wonder if I'd have the mental energy left after my a stint off-shore to actually play poker (afterall, I don't like playing the game). It sounds like that time might actually be needed for genuine recuperation and I may not play as many hours of poker as I'd want/need.

The really important part of your post is that part about knowing a lot of guys that have the qualifications, certificates, etc and still can't get a job off-shore. This is worrying - as I've said all along my big fear is wasted time and money leading to no positive end result. I'll try to talk to other friends I have in the industry and see if they also agree with your view.

What about the ROV side of things? As specialisms go I'd be very confident that would hold my interest. If I was to undertake a course(s) in ROV control and operation would I still face the same issues or would I stand a better chance of getting a position? If so, does anyone recommend any course(s)?

Mitchy260

The Underwater Centre

Again no guarantees, factor in not having an income for the duration of the course, hotel fees on top, it's very very costly. I'm not sure if you would need to complete both the ROV courses to stand a good chance of securing employment. Looks like about £15k for the course alone + living costs, you could easily blow £20k.

Worthwhile i suppose if you manage to secure employment afterwards, starting salaries around £40k for ROV pilots/Techs and quite a bit more than that if you go for SE work.

LG John

Holly ******** Tuesday that is a lot of money? Surely not all ROV pilots have paid that kind of money for their training. There must be some sort of assistance scheme, grant, sponsorship available somewhere?

Mitchy260

I would imagine quite a fair few of them are ex navy so incurred no costs. Yes, certain companies will sponsor their employees to do these courses but im sure its who you know not what you know most of the time that gets you into these kind of roles as trainees.

Speech

Quite a few companies will have their own in-house training scheme, therefore take on trainee pilot/techs and train them up as they go - bit like an apprenticeship.
Downside - trainee wages aren't that great and you're looking at about 5 years or so to get up to full pilot/tech status.
If you were to fund yourself through one of these courses then you can obvioulsy go to an agency and start contract work - however this doesn't guarantee a regular income as jobs can be few and far between, or you end up with almost no time at all at home - I know of guys who will be home at 9am only to be told pack up your booked to leave at 2pm! Turn down the work I hear you say, well you could but there's no telling what "black mark" that might leave on your agancy file.

I currently work for one of these subsea construction companies (Subsea 7) up here in Aberdeen (I'm onshore Electrical Engineer for our Remote Technology Group, although get the occasional stint on site and offshore) and I know that you will find it quite hard to get into the ROV side without some form of qualification in either Hydraulic or Electrical/Electronic Engineerind (HNC etc) I'm afraid.

Also, another one to throw into the "mental" side of things is the isolation offshore. It's not unknown for guys new to the industry to go a bit loopy whilst offshore, I've heard of recent graduates here having to be removed from vessels under medical grounds, an old neighbour once tried it and had to be sedated and medi-vac'd off and of course there's the well publicised story of one of our ROV guys who, the other year just before christmas, sparked a massive search and rescue mission in the North Sea after it was feared he had fallen overboard. A couple of days later he was found between the bulkhead of the vessel and the gym wall (think it was the gym) - he had been hiding in the roofspace and had fallen down, the noise of this alerted a couple of boys in the gym who investigated and found him.
Rigs apparantly aren't too bad as there's usually another within sight, but I've been out on one of our vessels and all you could see was water, easy to see how folk can become panicked.

Not wanting to sound all doom and gloom, but I think that the psyhcological aspects of offshore work are often overlooked and it would be an absolute nightmare if you were to shell out a load of cash first and find you are not suited to the lifestyle.

LG John

Hmmm, seems to be a lot of that 'who you know' business going on in the oil/gas industry! Thanks again Mitchy, you've been really insightful

Butkus

I don't know anything about the oil industry, so can't help you there.

What I was going to suggest was why don't you look into trading? It seems that you have a good understanding of probabilities etc, so maybe you would be well suited to it. You can trade the markets from home just as easily as you play poker.

LG John

It's something I may consider in the future Butkus but it carries nearly all the same types of risk and rewards as poker. I'd not have assured income or a fixed routine or social contact or other workplace benefits and the time taken to learn how to trade with a positive expectation is time that I could use to improve my poker game. It's also unlikely to capture my interest for a life-time in the same way poker won't.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I spend a bit of time in Aberdeen and it does seem to be thriving, there are loads of support industries, perhaps it might be worth investigating some of those to see if there are any interesting and rewarding jobs there, I feel your problem is that you are trying to avoid the boredom of working and get the maximum money for the minimum time, some do but by and large you need to start low and aim high, shortcuts are few and far between, no matter how smart you are, if you flit around you spend a lot of time down low.

I am on pretty good money but I have had to do exams, put the years in and put up with computers for god knows how long. Companies dont pay loads if you dont have recognised skills, sometimes they still dont, you need a marketable and in demand skill. The ones that pay generally arent glamourous or exciting

So, choose something, learn it, stick to it and the money will come, move about if needs be and forget about getting rich quick.

How old are you now as it gets more difficult to start again, the older and more responsibilities you get.

LG John

Just turned 30 last week

Ironically, the more I read the comments in this thread the more I think I should suck up the 'downsides' of playing poker and pour more and more energy into that. The general consensus seems to be that it would take many £1000's in training/education and probably into the 1000's of hours also. That time and money put into studying and experimenting with new techniques in my poker game would probably yield much higher overall results.

I guess I just want to do something that I really enjoy and have a passion for but it seems impossible to do that and still make a decent living. Furthermore, we want to consider starting a family within the next few years so it's not an ideal time to be joining on the bottom rung of a new profession.

Life is hard

Skoobie Dhu

iTrader: (3)

I've a few friends who managed to get into offshore through Schlumberger. They started as trainee wireline operators (think it's technican now) and this is a role that has good potential for career progression through promotions.
Aberdeen is booming just now, see below links, some of the salaries being offered just now to poach experienced staff for both onshore and offshore posts are just ridiculous.

Scottish homes market view 2008: Aberdeen - Times Online

Scottish homes market view 2008: Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire - Times Online