Are Soldiers Still Protected And Above The Law??
01 August 2008, 11:13 AM
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Are Soldiers Still Protected And Above The Law??
This is an interesting 1, bear with me its a long 1
As an ex member of the armed forces myself, i was always led to believe that in the ''old'' days the Army always looked out for you and would protect you when it came to civil matters. If you had done wrong and been arrested, the Army would sort it out and save you from custodial sentencing etc.
From speaking to the old and bold this seems to be the thought of soldiers serving in the 70's/80's etc.
However with todays PC world, it is reported to be somewhat different nowadays. I started my forces career in 2000 and was told that this was no longer the case and that if i had done anything wrong, the civil police would come down hard on me as would the military police. If i was to bring the Army into disrepute, i was all on my own.
Anyway, i was shocked yesterday at this...
BBC NEWS | England | Wiltshire | 'Beasting' death soldiers cleared
I thought they were going to go down for a long time, but they've been cleared
Another recent example of a whole load of soldiers causing a mass brawl getting off with things
BBC NEWS | UK | Soldiers cleared of Cyprus brawl
As an ex member of the armed forces myself, i was always led to believe that in the ''old'' days the Army always looked out for you and would protect you when it came to civil matters. If you had done wrong and been arrested, the Army would sort it out and save you from custodial sentencing etc.
From speaking to the old and bold this seems to be the thought of soldiers serving in the 70's/80's etc.
However with todays PC world, it is reported to be somewhat different nowadays. I started my forces career in 2000 and was told that this was no longer the case and that if i had done anything wrong, the civil police would come down hard on me as would the military police. If i was to bring the Army into disrepute, i was all on my own.
Anyway, i was shocked yesterday at this...
BBC NEWS | England | Wiltshire | 'Beasting' death soldiers cleared
I thought they were going to go down for a long time, but they've been cleared
Another recent example of a whole load of soldiers causing a mass brawl getting off with things
BBC NEWS | UK | Soldiers cleared of Cyprus brawl
Last edited by Mitchy260; 13 August 2008 at 08:42 AM.
01 August 2008, 11:39 AM
#2
My understanding of the beasting case is that when the judge was summing up he was horrified that the officer in charge of the incident was not in the dock....and indeed was / is being promoted.
The judge directed the jury to consider who should actually be brought to book for for the offence and the jury considered that it should have been the bloke in charge and cleared the men in the dock.
That's my understanding .......
Shaun
The judge directed the jury to consider who should actually be brought to book for for the offence and the jury considered that it should have been the bloke in charge and cleared the men in the dock.
That's my understanding .......
Shaun
01 August 2008, 11:46 AM
#3
Being on the inside on the alleged "beasting" there are defence facts that never got reported by the Media because it was not good copy.
He was not a junior soldier, was an ill disiplined soldier who had just came back from being AWOL again, there are also issues with the PM results and the content of his blood. His symptoms where classic esctasy poisoning.
He never made it to the Drill Square and was taken ill whilst being marched there. He was taken ill, evacuated to the Med Centre had a fit and was then taken to the Hospital where he subsequently died after another fit.
His death is tragic and sad but soldiers are subject to harder physical stress on Operations. no-one complained about the stress and physical pressures in the "Commando" programme, in fact the number of Marine Recruits increased? Ross kemp highlighted how hard real soldiers have to perform.
Again, these facts where produced by the defence but did the media mention it..........................NO!
As you know or should as an ex soldier "beasting" is a phrase used for a number of things eg a hard march, a long drive, harsh patrol or a hell of a session on the pop.
If they are being sweep under the carpet why are court cases being brought?
I suggest you read the court report and not what the media want you to see or hear.
Also the case you quote as your own experience could come back to haunt you and you may have to give evidence to the fact. If you knew why not stand by your convictions take your gollies in your hand and do it!
6 months is a lot longer than some civvies do for manslaughter, if they ever go down!
He was not a junior soldier, was an ill disiplined soldier who had just came back from being AWOL again, there are also issues with the PM results and the content of his blood. His symptoms where classic esctasy poisoning.
He never made it to the Drill Square and was taken ill whilst being marched there. He was taken ill, evacuated to the Med Centre had a fit and was then taken to the Hospital where he subsequently died after another fit.
His death is tragic and sad but soldiers are subject to harder physical stress on Operations. no-one complained about the stress and physical pressures in the "Commando" programme, in fact the number of Marine Recruits increased? Ross kemp highlighted how hard real soldiers have to perform.
Again, these facts where produced by the defence but did the media mention it..........................NO!
As you know or should as an ex soldier "beasting" is a phrase used for a number of things eg a hard march, a long drive, harsh patrol or a hell of a session on the pop.
If they are being sweep under the carpet why are court cases being brought?
I suggest you read the court report and not what the media want you to see or hear.
Also the case you quote as your own experience could come back to haunt you and you may have to give evidence to the fact. If you knew why not stand by your convictions take your gollies in your hand and do it!
6 months is a lot longer than some civvies do for manslaughter, if they ever go down!
Last edited by The Trooper 1815; 01 August 2008 at 12:01 PM.
01 August 2008, 12:23 PM
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I do recruit training with the TA and we are governed by the same strict rules as the regulars.
Ever since the armed forces lost Crown Exemption, individual soldiers can now be liable to prosecution in civil court. Instructors have even more responsibilities.
There are many rules governing recruit training now, some of which are:
Recruits cannot be taken for a run before a risk assessment is done.
You cannot make recruits do physical activity as a punishment, including press-ups - a punishment going back a long way.
You cannot even straighten the collar of a recruit on parade without warning them you are going to touch them first, otherwise it is classed as assault.
Instructors have to sign a log for every single lesson we teach. If a soldier has an incident involving weapons, for example, it is likely that each instructor involved in their weapons training will be assessed to see if they were deficient. God forbid any that are deemed to have a deficiency in their teaching of a particular lesson.
All lessons are now given strictly by the book now. While this largely covers the ***** of instructors, it doesn't necessarily benefit the recruits.
Compared with when I was a recruit in the late 80's, recruits now are mollycoddled. Even though I'm of the opinion that this creates a less robust soldier, events in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to disprove this.
I have to say I'm surprised the 3 instructors in question got off though. There seems to be a system of "hanging out to dry" in the civil courts anyone deemed in any way responsible when something happens in the Army nowadays.
The soldiers accused of fighting in Ayia Napa have also been found not guilty - another surprise. Especially as even being in Ayia Napa is a serious offence in its own right.
Ever since the armed forces lost Crown Exemption, individual soldiers can now be liable to prosecution in civil court. Instructors have even more responsibilities.
There are many rules governing recruit training now, some of which are:
Recruits cannot be taken for a run before a risk assessment is done.
You cannot make recruits do physical activity as a punishment, including press-ups - a punishment going back a long way.
You cannot even straighten the collar of a recruit on parade without warning them you are going to touch them first, otherwise it is classed as assault.
Instructors have to sign a log for every single lesson we teach. If a soldier has an incident involving weapons, for example, it is likely that each instructor involved in their weapons training will be assessed to see if they were deficient. God forbid any that are deemed to have a deficiency in their teaching of a particular lesson.
All lessons are now given strictly by the book now. While this largely covers the ***** of instructors, it doesn't necessarily benefit the recruits.
Compared with when I was a recruit in the late 80's, recruits now are mollycoddled. Even though I'm of the opinion that this creates a less robust soldier, events in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to disprove this.
I have to say I'm surprised the 3 instructors in question got off though. There seems to be a system of "hanging out to dry" in the civil courts anyone deemed in any way responsible when something happens in the Army nowadays.
The soldiers accused of fighting in Ayia Napa have also been found not guilty - another surprise. Especially as even being in Ayia Napa is a serious offence in its own right.
01 August 2008, 12:32 PM
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Could it not be argued that the soldier was largely to blame? Taking a class A drug is strictly forbidden in the army, not to mention illegal.
It was also the soldiers fault he was even being disciplined in the first place.
How are the instructors supposed to know he had ecstacy in his system, or a weak heart, or any other condition that may lead to the same tragic result?
I had to work bloody hard in 50 degree heat. If I'd collapsed and died through heat exhaustion, should the person making me carry out those duties be convicted of murder?
01 August 2008, 12:34 PM
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Of course the regulations are ignored all the time. Woe betide anyone who gets caught out ignoring them though!
01 August 2008, 12:59 PM
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Why does someone always have take the blame?
Could it not be argued that the soldier was largely to blame? Taking a class A drug is strictly forbidden in the army, not to mention illegal.
It was also the soldiers fault he was even being disciplined in the first place.
How are the instructors supposed to know he had ecstacy in his system, or a weak heart, or any other condition that may lead to the same tragic result?
I had to work bloody hard in 50 degree heat. If I'd collapsed and died through heat exhaustion, should the person making me carry out those duties be convicted of murder?
Could it not be argued that the soldier was largely to blame? Taking a class A drug is strictly forbidden in the army, not to mention illegal.
It was also the soldiers fault he was even being disciplined in the first place.
How are the instructors supposed to know he had ecstacy in his system, or a weak heart, or any other condition that may lead to the same tragic result?
I had to work bloody hard in 50 degree heat. If I'd collapsed and died through heat exhaustion, should the person making me carry out those duties be convicted of murder?
Yes it was the soldiers fault he was being disciplined but then thats nothing new and it should not have lead to his death.
The instructors should have realised that physical strain and exhaustion without water intake on an extremely hot day of the year was neglectful.
I too have had to work in 50degree heat, but i was able to stop when i wished for a break and a drink. I was not forced like this lad was.
Someone is to blame and they were at fault through being neglectful of the lads welfare
I'm struggling to see why they were not and have been released without charge
Perhaps there is a point in the 2nd reply from midlife
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01 August 2008, 01:30 PM
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Are you medically qualified to state that ecstasy had no role in the death of this young man? If so them I'm sure that a career change should be in order and maybe if there is an appeal the prosecution should give a call.
A quick search on the internet states that per million users there are usually only 7 deaths for ecstasy users as opposed to 625 deaths per million alcohol users. Granted a rather tiny percentage, however the causes of deaths are split into 2 groups, either complications caused by over heating, or excessive water useage causing brain swelling.
As for being above the law and keeping things in house, I have found that the RAF take great delight of shopping you too the civvies letting them nail you, then on your return nail you again for bringing to Raf into disrepute. As for the Army i wouldn't know
A quick search on the internet states that per million users there are usually only 7 deaths for ecstasy users as opposed to 625 deaths per million alcohol users. Granted a rather tiny percentage, however the causes of deaths are split into 2 groups, either complications caused by over heating, or excessive water useage causing brain swelling.
As for being above the law and keeping things in house, I have found that the RAF take great delight of shopping you too the civvies letting them nail you, then on your return nail you again for bringing to Raf into disrepute. As for the Army i wouldn't know
01 August 2008, 05:30 PM
#9
Yes i was 'beasted' many a time. Not enjoyable at the time but it does work when it comes to teaching discipline.
Still the 3 in charge should have been better aware, not just of the soldiers condition but that of the weather, 1 of the hottest days of the year.
That was neglect of which they should have been punished. It was manslaughter at the end of the day. Ecstacy in the blood was irrelevant, he died of heat exhaustion caused by the PTI/Drill Sgt's in charge.
They certainly should not be allowed to keep their job if they think doing that to someone in extreme conditions is neccessary in installing discipline. There are far better ways (round the clock inspections for example)
I just find the decision unbelievable. They have got away with sheer neglect and if i were family i would be pursuing this right to the end for a prosecution.
The lad died for no reason if no 1 is convicted of manslaughter. it was not accidental death, someone is to blame.
My views anyway and i can see why the family are shocked at the decision.
I believe there's more to it than meets the eye, the old Army handshake playing its way again.
Still the 3 in charge should have been better aware, not just of the soldiers condition but that of the weather, 1 of the hottest days of the year.
That was neglect of which they should have been punished. It was manslaughter at the end of the day. Ecstacy in the blood was irrelevant, he died of heat exhaustion caused by the PTI/Drill Sgt's in charge.
They certainly should not be allowed to keep their job if they think doing that to someone in extreme conditions is neccessary in installing discipline. There are far better ways (round the clock inspections for example)
I just find the decision unbelievable. They have got away with sheer neglect and if i were family i would be pursuing this right to the end for a prosecution.
The lad died for no reason if no 1 is convicted of manslaughter. it was not accidental death, someone is to blame.
My views anyway and i can see why the family are shocked at the decision.
I believe there's more to it than meets the eye, the old Army handshake playing its way again.
Ecstacy gives the same symptoms as de-hydration. All ravers, clubbers drink **** loads of water!
How can they give him round the clock inspections if he's continually going AWOL and getting pissed an d smacked off his face
Like you said,you views, not clinical evidence, listening to the evidence and the truth coming out.
12 just and good jurors are all, obviously, in the funny handshake club.
The new corporate manslaughter law means **** rolls down hill. Irrespective who gave the order the man at the bottom will get it.
01 August 2008, 05:32 PM
#10
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I know of someone that was in the Parachute Regiment, and then the Special Forces a long time ago, and he seems to have gotten away with an awful lot over the years.
Assaulting police officers(about 6 of them) is one that comes to mind, and that just seemed to disappear.
Thats all I can really add to this as I havnt been in the forces myself. Makes you think though.
Assaulting police officers(about 6 of them) is one that comes to mind, and that just seemed to disappear.
Thats all I can really add to this as I havnt been in the forces myself. Makes you think though.
01 August 2008, 08:35 PM
#11
I know of someone that was in the Parachute Regiment, and then the Special Forces a long time ago, and he seems to have gotten away with an awful lot over the years.
Assaulting police officers(about 6 of them) is one that comes to mind, and that just seemed to disappear.
Thats all I can really add to this as I havnt been in the forces myself. Makes you think though.
Assaulting police officers(about 6 of them) is one that comes to mind, and that just seemed to disappear.
Thats all I can really add to this as I havnt been in the forces myself. Makes you think though.
Ever watched the TV lately?
Happens all the time on Cops, Chavs, Video and CCTV progs.
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