Disco

Aside from the terrible Volcano eruption in Congo this weekends news seems to have been dominated by the stories of the apparent 'inhumane' and 'tortuous' way the US is treating Al Qaeda prisoners in Cuba.

[rant mode on]
Maybe I have become some brutal heartless **** over the years, but personally I couldn't care less about how badly they are being treated! I dont remember Al Qaeda worrying about innocent civilians human rights when they they brutally murdered 6000 of them at the WTC, and the many other attacks they have been responsible for over the years. As far as I am concerned they have forfieted their human rights as a result of their actions. And then to discover that Jack Straw and his cronies have 'ordered' a full investigation into the mens treatment by US authorities!!!![img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] It just makes me embarrased to be British that our government should pamper these viciously evil, heartless and cowardly killers!!!! Perhaps we should offer Bin-Laden asylum here in the UK to protect him from those horrible inhumane Americans[rant mode off]

Am I evil, or does anyone else agree?

devils_ad69

No matter what these people have done (or it is alleged they have done) we still need to abide by international law, else we are no better than them for ignoring peoples rights to due process and justice.

If they are prisoners of war, doesn't the Geneva Convention apply?

PS. Normally I'm the one at the front of the pack holding the lighted torch in the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade, so don't start thinking I'm some lefty sandal wearing loony!

Disco

I get your point, but wouldn't a quiet word in Americas ear be more appropriate rather than the whole political and media bandwagon that seems to be making out that the prisoners are the worst victims in all this?

dsmith

The action in Afganistan is based largely on the premise that we have the moral high ground. The politicians are worried that we may lose that if we are seen to treat them too harshly.

One of the problems is that we judge their condition by our standards (Never been in prison but have seen tv ) which in comparison to standard living conditions in the mountains of afganhistan is many times higher - let alone what an afganhistan prison is likely to be like.

fast bloke

We also judge their actions against our morals. I am not taking sides on it, but I think people need to appreciate what has happened to make these people believe what they do. Many westerners believe them to be intrinsically evil. If anyone watched Bloody Sunday last night, they should now be able to se the flip side of the coin. A number of Paras where placed in Derry and told repeatedly that the 'stickies' would probably come out shooting. They proceded to shoot 27 innocent civilians. The debate about fault is still raging on 30 years later, but there has been no evidence that the IRA fired any shots or that there where any explosives in Derry that day. So question is - Are those Paras also intrinsically evil, or merely the victim of circumstance and propaganda? Having killed a number of civilians based on what they had been told by their superiors, do they deserve to be manacled and thrown in a sensory deprivation pit?

druddle

As far as i knew, for the Geneva Convention to apply, the terrorists have to do some things aswell, like cease any of their terrorist activities.

Have they done this ? If not they cant expect the US to abide by the Geneva Convention.

Anyway, IMHO, they are murderous animals, so they should be prepared to be treated like animals. You reap what you sow.

Dave

Disco

The Paras haven't consistently planned and executed terrorist atrocities unlike Al Qaeda or even the IRA for that matter and even though they may have been at fault for the BS incident, I dont think you could ever call it a terrorist act, there is surely a major difference between that/them and real terrorist activities/terrorists???

fast bloke

Depends on your beliefs. The paras views of the IRA and the subsequently the civil rights marchers is probably very similar to the views held by Al Qaeda on the American military and subsequently the western world. There are two sides to every conflict (generally percieved to be the one you hold, and the wrong one.)
I wasn't implying that the paras were guilty of a terrorist act. I was trying to convey the message that given a particular set of circumstances there is a likely outcome. In both cases the outcome was dead civilians. Why do you deem one to be OK and the other not?

fast bloke

p.s.
That depends entirely on whose propagana you read

Disco

They should all be made to wear squeaky Rockports, that would be a huge deterent!!!

[Edited by Disco - 1/21/2002 2:52:53 PM]

Chip

I think they should be treated as we would expect our own people to be treated if captured. In our own forces people join because want to. In places like Afghan etc a lot of these people have no choice whether they want to fight or not.

Going off subject millions of people die from starvation in the world each year through starvation,lack of water,sanitation etc. This,so they say is down to global warming caused by all the crap put into the air. Nearly all leading world countries have agreed to cut their emissions dramatically over the next few years to help this cause. Apart from one of course.The US who as always will look after themselves and not give a toss about anyone else.

Disco.. Less than 3,000 people died in the WTC, which is still terrible but a lot less than previously thought.

As for the UK I am sick of hearing how Tony and his mates bend over backwards to appease terrorists like Adams and Mcguiness.

Rant over.

Chip.

ChrisB

I read the US is calling them illegal battefield combatants (or something similar) and hence don't get the same rights as POWs.

fast bloke

Like what?

I hear this phrase all the time. Thanks to Tony and his mates, Northern Ireland is more British than it has ever been. OK, so a few taigs get jobs and decent housing, and a police force that treats ever one equal (not), while Ireland removes Articles 2&3, dropping their constitutional claim to Northern Ireland. Maybe I amd missing something. Can you point out exactly how and what Blair has done to appease SF?

Tiggs

not prisoners of war cause there is not a war going on as defined by the convention.

ps- sky news saying "war on terror" dont make it a war.

Disco

Apart from releasing SFs loyal subjects from prison FB?

Disco

1 would have been too many.


Look at it this way, if your best friend or even one of your children were killed at WTC or similar, would you still care whether the culprits were treated well and within the Geneva Convention?

Chip

FB, Watch the news today. Theres one thing for a start.
Releasing all the TERRORISTS from prison. WHY?
letting them keep their weapons. WHY?
Allowing the US to fund the IRA. WHY?
Compensating Terrorists WHY?

Just a few. And weve got a peaceful Ireland have we. If you think that then get your head out of the clouds.

Chip.

Chip

Oh and what a waste of my money this Bloody Sunday enquiry is. Why is it being carried out. To appease the IRA. Or should we say Real IRA as they like us to call them know.

What about the 28 killed in Omagh after the good friday agreement was signed. Why dont we have an enquiry into this then. Then again what would be the point because we,d only let the guilty go free anyway.


Chip.



[Edited by Chip - 1/21/2002 3:31:00 PM]

fast bloke

Releasing all the TERRORISTS from prison. WHY? Key word is all - including the loyalists who are bombing and killing on a daily basis.

letting them keep their weapons. WHY? Including the loyalists, who are bombing and killing on a daily basis

Allowing the US to fund the IRA. WHY? cos the US does what it likes, and has one set of rules for anti US terrorists, and a different set for the rest.

Compensating Terrorists WHY? Agreed, but again, not only applies to IRA, but also to loyalist terrorists.

Also agree that the Bloody Sunday Enquiry is a waste of 100 million that could go to hospitals. Easy was out is for the govt to say - oops - we screwed up sorry - end of story. As it is, the SF and DUP propaganda machines can milk it for all it is worth, ensuring that the 'punishment beatings' and sectarian killings don't stay in the headlines too long.


Your first point was that Tony is bending over backwards to appease Sinn Fein. All you other points demonstrate that the same appeasement os going on for the loyalist terrorists. Why do you not have a problem with this?

Markus

not too clued up on the cuba thing, even though I am in the usa at the moment!

To be honest, they are suspected terrorists so we should treat them with some respect, but for gods sake we should not give them the red carpet treatment.

As for the IRA, don't get me started. What about our governments mantra of 'we don't deal with terrorists' umm, so why are we talking to Gerry Adams? we should get the fella bumped off, along with the rest of IRA.

We had an interesting chat about terrorisim with some yanks recently, and we got onto the IRA, and these guys reckoned they were a bunch of 'freedom fighters' and we polietly pointed out exactly what they really are, and that it was the USA that funded them, they would not believe this, so we used the good old internet to find some bbc news stories, to say it shocked them was an understatement.

I just hope that once Tony and George have finished giving Bin Laden a kicking that they keep to their 'war on all terrorism' stuff and go after the IRA, doubt it'll happen, but hey, who knows.

fast bloke

Is there a group buy going on blinkers or something?

Neil Micklethwaite

Have the Americans signed the Geneva Convention ?

Chip

Nobody who has or is involved in bombings,killings etc should be let out of prison just to appease the so called peace process.

As Markus rightly said why do the government even deal with these people. Or if its OK to talk and deal with them then why not Bin Laden as well.

As for the Yanks and Brit government talkng of victory in Afghan,I think not.
For one Bin Laden and his sidekicks are nowhere to be found so we are told, which means they are still free to plot more atrocities. At least 6000 innocent people are dead. Some of these down to the US thinking a red cross was a target. But then theyve never had much upstairs anyway.

More worryingly the USA might have all the money and firepower in the world but we have seen recently just how easy it would be for a single person to wreak havoc by bringing down a plane or even flying yet another into a building.

I really think that these people will get back at us or the USA in a big way. Maybe not next week or next year. After all it took a long time to plan the WTC atrocity. But they will.

All weve got now is millions of Afghans homeless and starving,just like we left Iraq and what did we achieve there.Who will pay to put this right, us again I expect.

It should also be remembered why the Taliban were there in the first place. Because the Northern alliance was kicked out and replaced by them. Good move that!

I must say I have no time for any of these people whether US or Afghan. We only see what they want us to see on news etc anyway.
All I can say is thank god myself and my own family are not involved in any way.

As for world peace it'll never happen as you'll always have religion and greed. Thats unless TONY decides to sort it out himself of course.

Chip.

Chip

FB, doubt it youve got them all.

Chip.

[Edited by Chip - 1/21/2002 5:19:43 PM]

zoog

You know what:

This thread tells me one thing - we should stick to discussing cars.

Pete H

I don't think it's a question of where you stand - with those manacles it looks more like a cross-legged squat.

zoog

Anyone remember an 80's group called DEVO?

Those orange jumpsuits and hats along with the gogles look like they came straight out of their stage wardrobe to me...


"are we not men - we are DEVO!" was their most famous refrain.

The Zohan

Been kind of following this on the news.
I understand through watching Newsnight or such that these people (whatever you call them, POWs, Illegal combatants, whatever) stated that they will try to kill the American guards or take as many American guards with them as they can - with this in mind i do not have a problem with them being kept in a state of disorientation - It may well save their lives and more importantly the lives of the guards.
As for shaving their heads/beards - weapons can easliy be concealed and there is the hygene side to consider.

I am suprised there are any left to guard, i thought that they where supposed to be brave warriors not afraid to die and fight to the death - bunch of hypocricical cowards!


As for Northen Ireland - Can't people let the past go and get on with the future, this peace agreement has no hope if the past gets dragged out and raked over again and again & again. No disrespect to anyone injured or lost a relitive(s) or their lives - Just get on with it!
Simplistic i know - the best solutions often are

Luke

Come on.... Beats watching "Big Brother"

pslewis

OK, well here is my point of view!!

WHY, WHY bring them to ANY camp????

They should have been shot where they were found, with the words, 'You want to die for what you believe in, so let me help you'......bang......sorted!!

Why let them CHOOSE when they die and with whose children they take with them??

No sorry, they are executed immediately in my world

Pete