RAF Tornado navigator ejected whilst upside down
15 November 2007, 01:33 PM
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RAF Tornado navigator ejected whilst upside down
BBC NEWS | England | Norfolk | Probe into navigator death begins
Seems a little odd, no mention of potential suicide, but does seem a bizarre accident
Seems a little odd, no mention of potential suicide, but does seem a bizarre accident
15 November 2007, 01:39 PM
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Have they said if the seat actually ejected or just fell out? I remember someone was killed a few years back after a seat fell from a (privately owned ex-RAF) Jet Provost which rolled inverted. 
Pretty sad either way.
Pretty sad either way.
15 November 2007, 01:40 PM
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They have said it 'ejected' but haven't said whether it was a fault or deliberate
It might just have been really bad timing
Apparently the crew were BAE Civilians
It might just have been really bad timing
Apparently the crew were BAE Civilians
15 November 2007, 01:42 PM
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I'll avoid being pedantic and pointing out that the poor guy was a civilian contractor, not RAF... (OK, you beat me to it anyway)
Edited to add that the terms used to rather strongly imply an ejection rather than a seat falling out. Though I'll not discount anything just yet...
I can think of a couple of scenarios:
Inexperienced guy in the back, pilot pulls a couple of over enthusiastic moves, nav freaks out and pulls the handle thinking that the aircraft has departed controlled flight.
Aircraft does depart controlled flight. Pilot recovers but nav has already gone.
Seat malfunction (almost unheard of and rarer still giving an uncommanded ejection).
New Martin Baker seats are supposed to be good for an inverted ejection at, I believe, 500', so the biggest question I'd be asking is what was a Tornado doing inverted over Sandringham at below that height?
SB
PS Generally if you're outside the seat envelope on a modern seat then you may as well go anyway as you're waaaaaay beyond recovering the aircraft...
Edited to add that the terms used to rather strongly imply an ejection rather than a seat falling out. Though I'll not discount anything just yet...
I can think of a couple of scenarios:
Inexperienced guy in the back, pilot pulls a couple of over enthusiastic moves, nav freaks out and pulls the handle thinking that the aircraft has departed controlled flight.
Aircraft does depart controlled flight. Pilot recovers but nav has already gone.
Seat malfunction (almost unheard of and rarer still giving an uncommanded ejection).
New Martin Baker seats are supposed to be good for an inverted ejection at, I believe, 500', so the biggest question I'd be asking is what was a Tornado doing inverted over Sandringham at below that height?
SB
PS Generally if you're outside the seat envelope on a modern seat then you may as well go anyway as you're waaaaaay beyond recovering the aircraft...
Last edited by Sbradley; 15 November 2007 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Caveats
15 November 2007, 01:52 PM
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I'll avoid being pedantic and pointing out that the poor guy was a civilian contractor, not RAF... (OK, you beat me to it anyway)
Edited to add that the terms used to rather strongly imply an ejection rather than a seat falling out. Though I'll not discount anything just yet...
I can think of a couple of scenarios:
Inexperienced guy in the back, pilot pulls a couple of over enthusiastic moves, nav freaks out and pulls the handle thinking that the aircraft has departed controlled flight.
Aircraft does depart controlled flight. Pilot recovers but nav has already gone.
Seat malfunction (almost unheard of and rarer still giving an uncommanded ejection).
New Martin Baker seats are supposed to be good for an inverted ejection at, I believe, 500', so the biggest question I'd be asking is what was a Tornado doing inverted over Sandringham at below that height?
SB
PS Generally if you're outside the seat envelope on a modern seat then you may as well go anyway as you're waaaaaay beyond recovering the aircraft...
Edited to add that the terms used to rather strongly imply an ejection rather than a seat falling out. Though I'll not discount anything just yet...
I can think of a couple of scenarios:
Inexperienced guy in the back, pilot pulls a couple of over enthusiastic moves, nav freaks out and pulls the handle thinking that the aircraft has departed controlled flight.
Aircraft does depart controlled flight. Pilot recovers but nav has already gone.
Seat malfunction (almost unheard of and rarer still giving an uncommanded ejection).
New Martin Baker seats are supposed to be good for an inverted ejection at, I believe, 500', so the biggest question I'd be asking is what was a Tornado doing inverted over Sandringham at below that height?
SB
PS Generally if you're outside the seat envelope on a modern seat then you may as well go anyway as you're waaaaaay beyond recovering the aircraft...
all sound reasonable to me.
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15 November 2007, 02:07 PM
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15 November 2007, 02:33 PM
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i saw a tornado in Norfolk giving it some throttle on wednesday afternoon about 3.00pm on my way back home...
hope it wasn't the same plane !!!
tragic news ....
hope it wasn't the same plane !!!
tragic news ....
15 November 2007, 02:38 PM
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Sorry it just seemed like a silly comment to make.
15 November 2007, 02:54 PM
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All BAES aircrew are either ex RAF aircrew or on secondment from the RAF, and are regularly trained (on a monthly basis) in aircraft emergencies. So the fact they were civilian is neither here nor there
15 November 2007, 03:53 PM
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so you wouldn't think any different if you saw the actual plane itself??
it just got me thinking thats all.
look at your own fecking comment for sillyness
troll somewhere else
15 November 2007, 04:06 PM
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lol no, Id just think wow, I saw that not long before it happened. Not like it was something that happened on a train you would normally have been on or anything and you had a lucky escape or something, oh sod it, you know what I meant anyway.
15 November 2007, 06:01 PM
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15 November 2007, 06:02 PM
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15 November 2007, 06:37 PM
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Living in Norfolk its just been on the local news.
Canopy had gone, seat had gone, and there was damage to the tailplane. From what was said it doesn't sound as if the seat initiated, it simply wasn't bolted in place, so when the aircraft inverted, the seat dropped through the canopy and hit the tail of the aircraft on the way out.
Someone is going to be in a world of ****.
Canopy had gone, seat had gone, and there was damage to the tailplane. From what was said it doesn't sound as if the seat initiated, it simply wasn't bolted in place, so when the aircraft inverted, the seat dropped through the canopy and hit the tail of the aircraft on the way out.
Someone is going to be in a world of ****.
15 November 2007, 07:19 PM
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As someone who has experience of the Martin Baker Mk10A in Tornados, all I can tell you is that without the facts, which certainly won't be released whilst an Air Accident Investigation is taking place (and may not be subsequently), it's all speculation.
It could have been a normal ejection sequence initiated in error, or it could have been an un-commanded ejection which is rare but not unknown.
My condolences to the family of the BAe flight crew concerned.
It could have been a normal ejection sequence initiated in error, or it could have been an un-commanded ejection which is rare but not unknown.
My condolences to the family of the BAe flight crew concerned.
15 November 2007, 07:39 PM
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As someone who has experience of the Martin Baker Mk10A in Tornados, all I can tell you is that without the facts, which certainly won't be released whilst an Air Accident Investigation is taking place (and may not be subsequently), it's all speculation.
It could have been a normal ejection sequence initiated in error, or it could have been an un-commanded ejection which is rare but not unknown.
My condolences to the family of the BAe flight crew concerned.
It could have been a normal ejection sequence initiated in error, or it could have been an un-commanded ejection which is rare but not unknown.
My condolences to the family of the BAe flight crew concerned.
Reasonable, informed posts suggesting that pure speculation is pointless and nailing the important issue are not appropriate here...
SB
15 November 2007, 09:06 PM
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15 November 2007, 10:00 PM
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16 November 2007, 08:36 AM
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Probably inverted because the pilot was playing around - still a terrible accident though - you dont expect to go up for a nice fun fly around and end up with the police having to tell your wife and kids you're dead.
On a similar note - I live near the airport, and for a couple of days we had the new Typhoon taking off from there - you could tell it was coming because it went up vertically for a couple of miles then vanished - never heard so much noise from a jet ( most planes taking off over our direction are smaller 2 engine commercial jets going off on holiday ) but looked awesome.
Apparently there was no good reason for the pilot to take off like that, they just do it because they can .
On a similar note - I live near the airport, and for a couple of days we had the new Typhoon taking off from there - you could tell it was coming because it went up vertically for a couple of miles then vanished - never heard so much noise from a jet ( most planes taking off over our direction are smaller 2 engine commercial jets going off on holiday ) but looked awesome.
Apparently there was no good reason for the pilot to take off like that, they just do it because they can .
16 November 2007, 08:53 AM
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Probably inverted because the pilot was playing around - still a terrible accident though - you dont expect to go up for a nice fun fly around and end up with the police having to tell your wife and kids you're dead.
On a similar note - I live near the airport, and for a couple of days we had the new Typhoon taking off from there - you could tell it was coming because it went up vertically for a couple of miles then vanished - never heard so much noise from a jet ( most planes taking off over our direction are smaller 2 engine commercial jets going off on holiday ) but looked awesome.
Apparently there was no good reason for the pilot to take off like that, they just do it because they can .
On a similar note - I live near the airport, and for a couple of days we had the new Typhoon taking off from there - you could tell it was coming because it went up vertically for a couple of miles then vanished - never heard so much noise from a jet ( most planes taking off over our direction are smaller 2 engine commercial jets going off on holiday ) but looked awesome.
Apparently there was no good reason for the pilot to take off like that, they just do it because they can .
16 November 2007, 10:26 AM
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As was stated, all this is pure conjecture ane ther is no way any of us can why it happened. I am sorry for the bloke concerned.
As I understand it, it is possible for the seat to be steered by the rocket system to a better angle if operated while inverted.
Les
As I understand it, it is possible for the seat to be steered by the rocket system to a better angle if operated while inverted.
Les
16 November 2007, 12:44 PM
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Tragic.
You never think of non millitary types flying these kids of planes, apart from the poor chap falling out it sounds like a superb job.
My dad used to work on the buses as a pump fitter and they used to take the buses out on test, same kind of thing but the pilots didnt get the joy of driving towards a bus stop slowing down and not stopping.
You never think of non millitary types flying these kids of planes, apart from the poor chap falling out it sounds like a superb job.
My dad used to work on the buses as a pump fitter and they used to take the buses out on test, same kind of thing but the pilots didnt get the joy of driving towards a bus stop slowing down and not stopping.
16 November 2007, 12:54 PM
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I think I read somewhere that there was significant damage to the tail fin, does this suggest the rocket hadn't fired or been fired?
Terrible tragedy whatever the circumstances....