unclebuck

Does anyone have any idea why the BBC, when covering the McLaren being in possession of confidential Ferrari data story, have decided to rename the McLaren team - 'Lewis Hamilton's McLaren'? They've been doing it all day.

As far as I know they are just 'McLaren' so why has the BBC elected to rename them in this way? Are they trying to link Hamilton's name in some way with the F1 espionage row in order to tarnish his reputation/imply he's cheating? We all know how they love to try to misrepresent people.

Chris L

Technically it's Vodafone McLaren Mercedes I suspect it just sheer lazy journalism rather than a deliberate attempt to misrepresent

unclebuck

Of course. How naive of me to even suspect that some BBC career journalist would ever seek to link Britain's new motor sport hero to a scandal involving his employer...

That could never happen....

It's reassuring to know that we can trust the world class broadcasting service that is the BBC to provide the facts, presented in an unbiased way.

Petem95

More to the point, how the hell did McLaren get left off this?!

Their chief designer had an extensive document on the 2007 Ferrari car - he must have read this, so there's a very high probability some of what he's seen has influenced the design on the McLaren car?! You are unlikely to ever be able to PROVE this, but he's the chief designer ffs!

I'm generally a McLaren fan, but I'm amazed they got off with nothing - was expecting a big fine and maybe some points docked.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, it does seem strange, but it did say that they have avoided any immediate penalty. There may be something later on. I will have to wait till I hear more details on this.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

The sport is in decline in many ways hence to throw one of the two teams vying for this year's title out of the championship would have been commercial suicide. Even docking them points would have not been clever business wise hence the decision. It will all come back in the off season and be sorted out quietly then IMO.

oobster

I think the timespan between the document going missing and the phonecall from the guy at the photocopy shop was so small that they couldn't possibly have read it, then incorporated any of it into the design of the McLaren car, then got the bits made, tested and on the car.

STI Craig

i deno but the the british media will cost mcLaren a driver "alonso"

just like the british media to go and screw things up, alonso will prob be at ferrari soon, well done british media











IDIOTS

Hoppy

UB, it's just a turn of phrase which you have misinterpreted. McLaren is 'Hamilton's team' just as I could claim that Manchester United is 'my' football team, if you get the drift. And any news story these days has GOT to include the name Hamilton, for obvious journalistic reasons.

The reason McLaren got let off is that there is no evidence that that they benefited, formally or otherwise, from the illegal collusion of two McLaren and Ferrari employees, or had any part in the espionage. And McLaren was prepared to lay all bare to prove it. Also, Bernie said right at the start that any penalties would apply only to the team, not the drivers

Unforntunately, cheating is part of every sport today, it seems. The only interesting piece of purely circumstantial evidence against McLaren is that they complained about Ferrari's moveable undertray. How did they know about that? Educated guesswork or a tip-off? Anyway, the rules got tightened which kind of suggests that Ferrari were cheating all along. A charge that they have faced, as a team and from their drivers (eg Mr Schumacher) plenty of times before. Hypocrites

Justice done. The two guilty individuals will face civil legal charges, which is how things should properly proceed from now on.

If you want to dig deeper, who says it wasn't a Ferrari 'sting' in the first place and the documents were false?

Richard.

Chris L

Well put Richard - seeing the info is one thing - redesigning bits of your car to incorporate the changes is another thing all together (and it would be obvious to the senior technical guys that it had been done). Sure Ferrari will puff up their feathers and make lots of noises about imposing penalties, but they know what the score is - the outcome, so far, seems pretty sensible.

unclebuck

Of course. It's complete nonsense....

That's kind of my point...

Odds on

F1 was struggling.

Lewis comes along and f1 picks up again.

As mentioned, taking points off him would be commercial suicide.

Hence no action taken.

And I used to moan about z german getting it his way

swampster

iTrader: (1)

There was no action taken because there's no evidence to prove that McLaren benefitted from or even knew that Coughlan had the dossier. Whilst Coughlan was indeed in the employ of McLaren at the time then technically Mclaren have been deemed in breech of the sporting code. However that doesn't mean that McLaren (as a team) knew he had those papers. Indeed from what I've read about it, it seems more likely they were going to be used as a sweetner for him (Coughlan) and Stepney made an approach to Honda rather than be used to benefit McLaren.

To say that McLaren should be responsible for the conduct of one of their employees would be totally unfair in this respect, looking at the situation reasonably it would be impossible for McLaren (or any other team for that matter) to police this kind of thing... think about it there's no way your employer knows what you're upto whilst you're not at work is there? If they did you'd be asking them serious question of what the hell they were upto breeching your privacy.

As it is McLaren basically sacked Coughlan as soon as this came to light, stated their position and were willing to bare all with respect to the technical details of their car to prove that they haven't benefited from these documents.. which realistically is as much as they could have done.

It should be pointed out that if further evidence does come to light that proves McLaren as being implicit and they did benefit from these documents the FIA's WMSC has stated they will basically haul McLaren over the coals.

And to say F1 is struggling is utter nonsense!

Odds on

Was. As in before this season.

And Mr Dennis may not be as clean cut as he's making out here. Having worked on a project involving him, I noticed that he will say and do anything to get his way.

Saying that, Maclaren are the team I'd like to see win. It would have been a real disappointment if Lewis had been stopped in his tracks over something that had nothing to do with him.

swampster

iTrader: (1)

That is quite possibly true, but then that is no different from the CEO's and execs in any other industry. But the essential thing here is proof, and there isn't any.

Personally I think it was more a deal between Coughlan and Stepney for their own personal gain rather than a collusion to help McLaren. Again re: the Honda deal.. personally I'd say that they as a team were more likely to be implicit, but there is no proof there either.

Some people are touting that as a McLaren employee then they should be responsible for the actions that any employee may or may not make outside of work, which is ludicrous in reality. If that were the case then Ferrari themselves should be deemed implicit also as they should be responsible for what Stepney was upto! I mean it might have been one big Ferrari "sting" tactic, let an employee leak documents.. let them take the fall and in the meantime use every method possible to discredit your nearest rival and try to get them penalised. It's just as likely as the scenario on trial!

Odds on

As said by a Mr Dennis regarding all construction employee's to their employers working on his Paragon project.

Strange how opinions and ideals can change over a few years isn't it?

swampster

iTrader: (1)

So Ron Dennis said to a bunch of construction companies.. you are all responsible for what your employees do outside of work?

Hard to believe.. I'd have thought most construction companies would have said **** off!!

Even if he did (quote?), it'd have no legal basis and the worse that could happen is he could pull the plug on a contract.. but even then with contracts as they are that could potentially be a financial and legal minefield.

I could well believe that for example.. some brickie who'd spent all night out on the tiles all while snorting enough Bolivian marching powder to keep a platoon of squaddies yomping all weekend, whilst out of work, then came in the next morning high as a kite and built a wall.. which subsequently collapsed taking with it a few McLaren workers and half the building with it, then he would rightly hold the employing company responsible, as what that employee has done outside of work would have directly influenced events inside.

In this case regarding "the dossier".. there is no evidence to suggest that has occurred. If there were I'm sure McLaren would have been punished, and quite rightly the threat of punishment still remains.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

LOL at this thread. I just knew someone would have to mention Ferrari cheating and Schumacher too.

At the end of the day McLaren have been gound guilty, but no punishment is forthcoming because according to the FIA no evidence can be found that they have benefitted. A bit like not prosecuting someone for breaking into your house just because he didn't take anything

As I said commercial reasons are the driver behind this and to the people who are saying F1 is not in commercial decline you are dreaming. Look at the sport 10 years ago compared to today, yes it's still popular, but not like it was.

Chris L

Well that isn't quite right. Yes the team is in breech of the regs, but as the FIA statement makes clear - they regard it as matter between Stepney and Coughlan - those two guys have probably ended their careers as a result of this unless they can come up with a very good explanation.

Vicarious liability would mean that Coughlan's actions could bring the McLaren team into disrepute. However, the question here is whether Coughlan was acting as an individual (which, from what has been said is most likely) or on behalf of the Team (which would be much more serious). There is no evidence to suggest that what Coughlan did was sanctioned by the McLaren, so I don't see how you can punish the whole team for his actions. McLaren acted correctly by immediately suspending him and cooperating with the FIA. I don't think they could have done much more.

Of course there are commercial considerations, but I think the issue is even more fundamental than that.

Odds on

Yes

Funnily enough, they did. Along with thinking he's the biggest **** since Ken Bates.

Possibly pointless replying to this bit. I doubt you'll take it in, but here goes. I have said that previously Mr Dennis expects companies to know and control their employees at all times. Now he has changed his attitude. I mealy pointed this out. (Your views towards 'lowly construction workers' may possibly be clouding your ability to accept what I'm saying)

But for the benefit of profits, will never happen. Bringing us nicely back round to what I said in the 1st place.

RoShamBo

iTrader: (1)

I am amazed that McLaren got away with no punishment.

To not even hand out a large cash fine (which would not have impacted McLaren at all but would have been a gesture) gives off the wrong message.

I read today that while Mclaren got let off for now, if Ferrari can prove the info helped McLaren gain an advantage then they could be banned from this season and next.

That might explain why Ron Dennis didn't look very pleased when he came out of the hearing........

swampster

iTrader: (1)

Pray tell why I wouldn't take it in?

So what are my views on construction workers? I don't believe I stated them, and never implied they were "lowly"..

But as for your comment about Ron Dennis saying this that or other.. show me the quote where he said that he expects companies to know when their employees are ******** some bint (or anything else) outside of work Otherwise it's simply hearsay..

And you have a man on the inside of the FIA WMSC and the FIA Legal Department telling you this? If it doesn't happen it'll be because there is no evidence, do you think Ferrari would just sit still if there was evidence? Even if the FIA did nothing they would probably pursue civil action!

Odds on

How many times will I need to answer your questions? You don't half have selected reading

For the record, No, I don't have an inside man!

swampster

iTrader: (1)

You haven't answered anything... at least not based on anything I have asked, other than try to denigrate my opinion with hearsay, attempted clever little quips and make veiled insinuations about my intelligence.

Leslie

I would say it is a combination of reporters who don't understand what they are talking about and tabloid journalism which is what the BBC seems to have descended to these days.

I dont think that McClaren should have carried any blame since it was one of their employees in cahoots with the Ferrari employee, both of whom were trying for a lucrative job with another team in any case. There would not have been time to incorporate any of the Ferrari design into the McClaren as has been mentioned above anyway.

Les

RoShamBo

iTrader: (1)

I am not so sure - just look at this spy shot - its of McLarens new car which will be ready for the next F1 race....

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-conten...7_launch_6.jpg

Leslie

That's a good many horses of a different colour

Les