Trout

iTrader: (1)

For those of you who may be confused or uncertain as to whether you are in the commision of a crime or may be subject to civil liability.


The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 also created new criminal offences in relation to race, such as racially aggravated criminal damage, assault and public order offences. And another law, called the Public Order Act 1986, makes it illegal to incite racial hatred, whether through the language used or through actions, such as distributing racist leaflets. Penalties are severe for anyone convicted of a racially motivated crime.

It is now police policy to treat even 'minor' incidents seriously, not just physical assaults, because of the particular fear that a hate motive can cause, and the possibility of escalation if such incidents are unchecked. The definition of a 'racist incident' now adopted by all forces is 'any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person'.


Is the criminal law the right solution?

Racial discrimination can often be subtle and hard to prove, rather than violent, and the solution can often lie in civil law rather than in the criminal courts. To establish that a crime has been committed requires a very high degree of proof, and the court has to be convinced "beyond all reasonable doubt". However, the civil courts take a different approach, and they only ask if a "reasonable man or woman" would accept the argument for or against.


Of course we could debate reasonableness. We could debate whether it is reasonable to make jokes of peoples names from another race because they 'sounded' like words in another langauge. Humourous puns perhaps, however in their commission they could be regarded as humiliating or exclusive to members of that other race.

A test of reasonableness would be whether the 'pun' in question would be freely used in the presence of people of that race without fear or favour. One imagines a reasonable person is unlikely to use such 'puns' that have a foundation on racial difference in such a scenario.

Of course we could take further elements of the pun in question and the use of the nominative. Using range of dictionaries over eighty per cent describe it as "archaic", "derogatory" or "offensive".

So to repeat the basis of civil liability in commission of a racist act, "if a "reasonable man or woman" would accept the argument for or against.", or a criminal liability, "any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person". Would either of these likely to be proven true when without further reference eighty per cent of public domain definitions regard it as a offensive term? The balance of reasonableness would seem to favour the term as racist rather than not racist therefore a proof would seem to be straightforward.

Whether you agree with modern political correctness or not - the term that was being discussed has been regarded as offensive since the 19th century - so this particular example is not a modern occurance.

hectic

Rannoch , in fairnes, this may well be 'so'.. but just for a sec,.. move away from the horse, and walk away from the soap box...... IF and only IF someone on here WAS being racist, fattist ageist sexist etc etc etc then surely its up to the powers that be, ie THE MODS to remove, ban or whatever action is ncessary. you , sir, at this rate, wil have LESS freinds on this BB than ME.. and thats sayin' summat!

watto52

is it just easier to say nothing at all. Just seems that everthing thing we say is either offensive racist or politically incorrect. I work with the public so i have to be so careful. I dont know any more what is racisit or offensive.
In nottingham people greet each other by saying "me duck" is that offensive to ducks?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

hectic,

I agree - I have not deleted, removed, banned, reported to moderator any threads. I have simply made my views known.

I enjoy riding on my high horse amongst all of those on their equally high horses that are adamant that as political correctness is unacceptable it is ok to continue to commission low level racism which in my experience of the world is one of the most insidious forms of exclusion and injustice.

I am not asking anyone here to agree with me, support me or be my friend. If you agree great, if not then that is clearly up to you.

Is it only me who thinks it strange that a person who supports being sensitive to others needs is vilified as 'political correctness gone wrong', on a 'high horse' or 'soap box' whereas perpetrators of exclusive comments are welcomed as part of the gang.

Rannoch

Reality

What's your point Gunga Din

sociopath

Oh put a sock in it you whinging fuzzy wuzzy!

hectic

i agree with your principals fella,.. these things *should* be upheld.. i made a 'jibe' at Mikey one day.. Bubba waded in saying i dont know the guy so how dare i?!?!?so the 'defence mechanism IS there.. but within confines of a BB, between friends there an even greyer area than in reality, If, there is anyone thats targetted or feels agreived, let them 'start the ball rooling ' as it were, rather than you or anyone else for that matter sitting there in judgement so to say .. there ARE rules to a BB i know , i used to manage one.
just chil a bit, fella.. we are all adults, we 'know' the limits...and if anyone pushes them , theres usually a word in an ear kinda thing done

HTH

Leslie

Rannoch,

An interesting post, but what I think is particularly important is, would I, as a white Englishman, really get equal protection under this act in the same way as a member of the ethnic minorities would should I be attacked or "offended" by someone who is not white?

I am anti racist but also feel that any bias against me as a white person by the lefty PC Plonkers would be absolutely wrong, but can I rely on equal treatment?

Les

Reality

Tell that to poor old Moses - he was just about hounded outta here .

Mind you - he did bring a lot of it on himself .

Suresh

Well I have been racially insulted on SN before today and therefore I plan to immediately take civil action against SN for allowing it to happen and for being negligent in not having subseqently removed the posting privileges of the person or persons concerned.

On the otherhand, because I'm not a complete ****, I'll just let it wash over me safe in the knowledge that this is only a car-enthusiasts internet forum and not real life.

The manner in which you seek to threaten and thereby try to exclude free speech just because YOU and only you might not like something just sickens me to be honest. If you don't like it here please remove yourself to a place better suited to someone in such a frail mental state. I think CBBC has a forum you might like...

hectic

Damn right he did.. the man was a nut.. he tried to force his beliefs and ideals.. its like having the Mormons round for dinner...

Trout

iTrader: (1)

You comment confuses me.

Are you saying that if I comment that a post if offensive then I am sitting in judgement?

And if ten others comment that I am wrong to say that and am on a high horse and a PC 'plonker' that they are not sitting in equal judgement.

The only strength and weight that I carry is that of the ability to post my views on here.

I have no moderator powers I am subject to the same moderation policy as you, what is it you think that I have that enables to me to sit in judgement over and above anyone else?

Many people are falling over themselves to find my position on injustice in some way unacceptable or inappropriate. I have no one having a quiet word in my ear.

Whether you are running a BBS or not - racism is not acceptable either in the BBS policy and in the law. So what is the problem? Should I permit or even encourage it as some have in contravention of both policy and law. Would that get me more friends?

Rannoch

Reality

You want friends off here

Name calling shouldn't offend/upset anybody older than 7 - all it does is show what an idiot the person calling out the names is !

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I get more confused by the moment!

Where have I threatened either SN or an individual?

If by posting up a commentary on the law makes you feel threatened then I suggest you may be the individual with the weak mind.

I applaud you tolerance of behaviour that you accept is racist and suggest that there may be others who find it less tolerable.

And if you are sick then can I suggest Peptobismol

hectic

no.. you ARE right if you want to pass comment. but do it in the right context , and in the right direction.. going on to a thread and offering people the chance to go into court is not in my humblest of opinions the 'correct' way.. i may be wrong.. but what I personally would do. is A, PM the person involved and pass a quip like, easy fella,that was a bit near the knuckle or suchlike.. then if its accepted.. cool.. if not, have a quiet word with a Mod to keep an eye on things... going in all guns blazing instantly sets everyone into a feeding frenzy as i have already said Racism IS evil shouldnt happen, but its a sad fact of life that it does...from ALL quarters.. it will never be eradicated unfortunately..

Anne Robinson

In my opinion, Rannoch, you need to get out more. Citing legal crap with regards the use of the word Chinaman is just ******* ridiculous in my opinion, plain and simple. I didn't have you down as the over-sensitive type. Just goes to show.

Scooby.Newbie

I'm driving to Nottingham tonight after work (no, don't feel sorry for me) so should I use this greeting or not? Am staying at the girlfriends mothers house, so want to create a good impression.

lightning101

Bulletproof vest is what you need

watto52

yeah try it, youll sound like a tit but its funny

hectic

Ahh.. the *immortal word*

TOLERANCE!!!


bolox if you ask me... an even bigger grey area than the one we find ourselves in already with this PC anti this and that everything B/S that we have every day!

*Sonic*

Are we allowed to say Englishman, I consider that offensive

Rannoch, maybe if you had looked a little closer at my thread in policy, and not jumped the gun like you did (at that point of your post, I had no idea at all what you were on about) and maybe if you had of PM'd me I would have responded much better than I did

And then maybe, just maybe you wouldnt have started this thread, and maybe had gone to bed not so angry

Steve

Suresh

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/threat



threat
a warning that something unpleasant is imminent; "they were under threat of arrest"



Thanks for taking my point. If people are too sensitive then the problem is with them and they should seek help to be able to deal with the harsh realities of life. Censorship of every little thing that might offend goes too far in my opinion and stifles the very freedom of expression that peole have died to protect.

Who are these others actually? Why don't you let them speak for themselves instead of 'putting words into their mouths? Are you their elected representitive or something?


P.S. Great troll by the way!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

So why not post with your real user id if you want to pass comment.

Whilst you are at it can you let me know where the line is?

Chinaman ok? ***** is not? Or maybe that is OK too?

Wog ok? Perhaps ****** isn't?

It would be great if you could enlighten all of us with which racially derived words are acceptable and which are not so it will save us from all of these threads in the future.

Oh, and just to be aware I am not the first to quote the laws stated above, it has been done before by some other member on his high horse getting carried away with political correctness, apparently also against the tide of opinion.

Have a fabulous day

lozgti

Rascism and talk of it seems to have gotten worse with all the rules regulations and junk trying to stop it.

Most normal decent people are not rascist.The more laws/police intervention/civil court intervention just brasses people off.Everyone running around spouting 'thats rascist,this is rascist,I'm going to court you rascist'.

The law simply fans the flames of something that *was* dying a death

hectic

Divisions of a Nanny-State. Im off to read Mein Kampf... or is that racist?
puts down book, walks away...

Reality

Why should we have special racism laws.

If someone calls me a fat **** - should I be less upset than someone being called a black **** ?

*Sonic*

You directed this at me in Policy on a thread that had nothing to do with the thread that got vaped

That to me was completly unjustified, but you chose to get on your high horse and have a go at me about it

Like I have said in the PM, which you havent responded to, Im happy to give you my personal details so we can discuss this court appearance further

Steve

Suresh

I just RTM'd your post for unacceptable use of racist language. Just who the hell do you think you are? I'm sure this type of post won't be tolerated here as people could be offended.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Steve,

I went to bed extremely relaxed and slept soundly thank you

You are indeed correct that my discovery of your 'vaped' thread in policy coincided with the vaping of your NSR thread last night.

I saw your apology and understand your confusion regarding my post.

Having said all of that it does not change my opinion in the slightest that I believe that I have developed an intolerance to injustice resulting from both my own actions over the years and the actions of others.

What intrigues me is that it is deemed to be over-sensitive, wrong or PC or whatever to think that injustice is a bad thing.

Have a great day

hectic

That is the CRUX of the matter tho' isnt it??
we cant do anything nowadays for fear that we *might* just upset someone