Jerome

See here

Ministers have won a Commons vote over their controversial ID cards plan but their majority was cut from 67 to 31.

Lets hope they are right and that this Identity Tax will be the downfall of Blair and his cronies.

boomer

Have a read of some of the comments in the NO2ID pledge!

There are some very valid points, some very angry people, and they are two-thirds of the way to their sign-up goal!

mb

Felix.

It still baffles me why people want to hide their identity - what have they got to hide?

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Cant be bothered reading all the info.

Just got to say it would not bother me in the slightest paying £10/£20 or what ever it is for these cards, they are a good idea, and will hopefully get rid of a lot of illegal workers.

I too see no reason to conceal my identity




Cookie

GC8

"Concealing my identity" isnt the point is it? The point is that in a free country your government, who are your elected representitives, (your servants not your masters), cant.......... Actually forget it; its so damned obvious that if you dont get it already no amount of explaining will help you.

Jerome

It's not about concealing my identity. I'm rarely out in public without photo ID anyway (in either the UK or Canada). I happily show this ID when asked by an appropriate official or representative.

I just don't see what the purpose of this ID is. I also don't trust this government (nor any subsequent one) not to misuse them or the information they contain. Do all the countries on the continent with ID cards have less crime, identity theft, benefit fraud and terrorism than the UK? I suspect not.

We already have passports, and photo driving licences with your address on. Why create another expensive and unecessary form of ID. Even non-drivers can get a provisional photo id licence.

I doubt it would make your job much easier either - the news item I linked to even says it will not be a requirement to carry it with you at all times:

In the debate Mr Clarke responded to fears about civil liberties, saying: "There would be no compulsion on anybody to show their ID card in the street."

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Whats all the attitude for

Like i said havent read up on it, was told by people that the cards where to cut down on illegals in the country being able to work, etc. Which to me sounds good.

Personally i believe the government should have more info stored about us!

One of my beliefs is that every baby born should have their DNA sample taken, and kept on file throghout their life. Within 100 years crimes such as rape would dissapear. If your worried about information being kept about you it says to me your doing something wrong!

And yes before anyone asks i do have a child, and would have had no problem if after he was born, having a DNA swob taken.


Cookie

_Meridian_

iTrader: (1)

1) It will do nothing to stop illegals: because a) you have to find them first, and b) any ID can be faked.

2) The more data, the more mistakes. One typo in data entry and you are now a suspected terrorist. Don't believe me? I'm on the Elimination DNA Database under the wrong name.

3) Rape is nearly always an argument about consent, not about who the man was. DNA makes no difference.


The point here is that forcing people to carry ID cards (and the government has admitted that eventually you'll have to carry them) removes one of your most fundimental rights: the right to walk the streets without the police demanding to know who you are. Effectively you become guilty until you can prove your innocence.


M

SD

What a nasty nasty accusation to make. This government's reputation with large IT projects, keeping their word, and not abusing basic human rights (presumption of innocence etc) are well documented. In A.N.Other country, for a reasonable cost and correctly implemented I wouldn't have such a problem as I do, but here you're getting closer and closer to a police state and most sheep are too blind to see what's going on.

The information will be abused, sold, snippets left on a laptop found in the 'back of a cab', stolen, etc etc. It doesn't matter what promises radar-head (C. Clarke) makes now, I just don't believe him. Spain has ID cards and the bombers still got the train... 911 hijackers had valid American ID. Just tell me exactly what difference a piece of plastic is going to make?

Simon.

Jap2Scrap

Ignoring everything subjective that you've written, as your opinion is as valid as mine, I'd just like to point out that they're talking about £200/£300 per card, not £10/£20.

Jap2Scrap

Another point. As well as asking for £200/£300 for your card there's also the small point that there are plans by the government to sell your details on to private companies for around £750 per person. So, not only do you pay to give your details over but those who are paid to collect them then are paid again to pass them on.

That can't be right.

ajm

If passports can't stop illegals entering the country how are ID cards meant to stop them working?

OllyK

It isn't, I get enough bloody crap through my letter box without paying the government to distribute my details to yet more companies. Anybody want to bet on a "buy yourself out" option? What about if you are already registerd with the TPS and such? Would the government change the rules so that details obtained from them are exempt?

Having all my personal details held by somebody else, out of my control scares the be-jesus out of me. The possibility of it getting lost, mis-typed, changed etc etc and then you becoming a "nobody" because they can't find you on the system because they changed something is worrying.

This will stop terrorism and illegals if, and only if there are road blocks at every street corner with police checking you identity and searching cars etc. If they don't do that, it won't make a jot of difference as the these people are already outside the system, they are hardly likely to opt to come in to the system just because of an ID card. Personally I don't want to be stopped and interrogated at every street corner, it smacks of Hitler and Stalin.

Dream Weaver

Its also a matter of principal. This country is aiming more towards a controlled state and they are slowly trying to turn us into robots.

ID cards, speed cameras everywhere, road charging with GPS in car systems so they can monitor where we drive at any given time (and at what speeds), not forgetting the new VOSA MOT's which are coming out soon which will bump MOT costs up to about £100 each with no free re-tests.

Where does it stop? Will they start a breathing/oxygen tax, charge us for having a crap if its over a certain size

I've nothing to hide, but I dont want to be forced to pay £300 for a crappy card I have to carry EVERYWHERE and they then sell my details on to double the already massive amount of spam I get.

They really should concentrate on solving the root of the problems by being harder on crime/criminals and completely stopping asylum/immigration.

Diesel

This is the nub of this argument. AGAIN this government should focus on REALLY fixing issues rather than want to be seen to be doing something that is ineffective and at the expense of the ordinary decent masses.

Anyone that believes that introducing ID cards will deal with issues regarding people that work illegally and do not hold or declare passport's is living in cloud cuckoo land. The government might however make money from fining those indigenous of us that forget or lose this panacea ID card... No bomb carrying without ID please

I know I'm not alone to feel clobbered and under siege from this power crazed blinkered lot. That is not bias or cynicism as I am actually old enough to know better - and my dad agrees too!!!!

They should get on with sorting genuine country issues out without recourse to bashing civil liberties and squandering the ordinary decent working man's taxes on pointless tiers of expensive bureaucracy. Just ask Stalin!

D

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

No problem with ID, but with a driving license costing £19 to change from paper to photo (Provisional license is £38, although free upgrade to full when you pass the test) and Passport £42 for ten years (£25 for child for 5 years).

So for an 18 year old, they would have to pay £80 already on two formal forms of photo ID.

Quote from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3127696.stm
If coupled with the passport, is it not a way for the govenment to get £93 out of you for 10 years, then continually raise the price?

So where do you think they will re-coup the additional cost of the ID card (the £200 or not being charged).... the taxpayer who is working legally!!

Why do you have to be over 75 to get a free ID card?? Where would some pensioners find the £93 for an ID card???

I'm not anti-ID card, I'm just annoyed with the underhand way this has been sneaked in using the "terrorist" and "immigrant" stories. Basically using cheap media hysteria to generate more cash, but then being stupid enough to not charge the public enough, so they would have to recoup the difference in taxes!

OllyK

Another point - you don't HAVE to have either a driving license OR a passport if you don't want to. You won't have the choice with the ID card, you HAVE to have it and you HAVE to pay and give it a couple of years and you will HAVE to have it on your person at all times.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

"In the debate Mr Clarke responded to fears about civil liberties, saying: "There would be no compulsion on anybody to show their ID card in the street.""

So what is the point having them then??????

OllyK

You don't have to show it when asked, but if choose not to, they can then immediately arrest for being a suspected illegal or terrorist as a good upstanding citizen wouldn't object to showing their ID card in the street

Chris L

For those of you who see no harm in ID cards and actually believe they will work, have a look at the website of Bruce Schneier - he's no crackpot doomsday merchant, but one of the foremost security experts in the world. He's worked extensively with the US government, so he knows what he is talking about. Consider reading a couple of his books - 'Beyond Fear' and 'Secret and Lies'

Chris
(Technical Security Consultant, against ID cards and no I don't have an online bank account either!)

OllyK

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...ional_ids.html is the ID card bit

GC8

Frustration, although it wasnt aimed soley at you.

Chris L

Thanks Olly

The point here to consider is that the government is just as aware of the shortcomings as Schneier and many other experts have pointed out. So it begs the question - why are they doing it? You have start asking some very searching questions. The vast, vast majority of people are legitmate. They are not terrorists or criminals, they pay their taxes and work hard. Why should your government feel the need to track and log in detail (beyond what they already do of course...) every single citizen in the country. I already have a birth certificate, NI number, PAYE reference, bank cards, driving licence and a passport. What possible benefit could there be to an ID card?

Despite what the government will tell you, I don't believe there is sufficient security in place to protect this data. There have been high profile cases of data theft involving major credit card firms and the worlds largest bank (Citibank) in the last few weeks. These are organisations that take their security very seriously and they've been found lacking. How far are you prepared to trust your government?

And again, despite what they tell you, these cards can be forged. There have been rumours of such things on several hacking sites for sometime.

Also consider that the London School of Economics is traditionally left-of-centre in its thinking, so for it to publish a report as damning as they did yesterday speaks volumes.

OllyK

You gotta love the way people come out with "I know nothing about X, but I sounds like a good idea to me". For those people...go forth and enjoy the pleasures of trepanning

TheBigMan

<rebel stamp up and down moment>

I won't be buying one of these. If they want to force it on us - fine However I will not be FORCED into purchase.

I'm not lugging a card with me everywhere I go.

Can't be arsed to go into my reasons about why I don't want one, as it's pretty much been done to death on this, and about 10 other threads similar.

OllyK

I did smile when Tony said the price would be capped at £100. So where will the rest of the money come from, oh yeah, another stealth tax Pay directly or indirectly, but pay we will.

TheBigMan

Yep. Pay for it, then chuck in my cabinet, along with passport.

Chris L

Until they past the next law that says every number, sorry, citizen, must carry their card with them at all times... Anyone read 1984 lately? It's not so far fetched when you see governments trying to introduce things like this...

OllyK

I'd be more worried about the mistakes made in getting your data in, processing and handling within the system so that if you do try and go abroad you aren't hauled up as some drug dealer or terrorist.

Dream Weaver

And what can we do about it in this so called democracy?

Who can we go to to say "hang on, this is a crap idea and the majority of us dont want it"

Seems like we will be ordered to have a card and have no say in whether it goes ahead or not, and theres no point writing to my crackpot local MP as he's useless