AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure many of you will have seen in the news this week, proposals by the Government to introduce a pay-as-you go road pricing model.

The rationale behind this is to charge drivers a varying amount per mile, depending on the type of road, time of day and level of congestion at the time. This is supposed to encourage drivers who currently queue in traffic, not to do so.

The per-mile charges being suggested range from 2p to £1.34. For comparison, a car doing an average of 23mpg on fuel costing 90p/litre works out at 18p/mile. The proposed maximum charge is therefore equivalent to an increase in the cost of fuel to £6.70 a litre. There would also be 'incentives' to drive more economical vehicles, so don't expect fuel duty to vanish overnight either.

The charge would be calculated by monitoring the movement of every private car at all times, logging journey distances, times and speeds in order to work out what the charge should be. This could be done by a network of roadside cameras (such as those used by the London Congestion Charge), or by a GPS 'black box' which would be installed in your car. Regardless of how it's implemented, though, the effect would be the same: your every movement gets tracked.

If that prospect appeals to you, then please feel free to close this window and read another thread. However:

I have prepared a letter to Alastair Darling, Transport Secretary, explaining why I believe it's a bad idea, and suggesting alternative solutions to the problem of road congestion which I believe will work. (I've already pestered my MP about the issue enough, but if you've not already contacted them, then he or she should be your first point of contact).

If you'd like to help make a difference, please PM or email me and I'll send a copy. All you need to do is add your own name and address, print it out and stick it in an envelope.

If you want to alter it to add your own points or remove those you may not believe in, that's even better. Please rest assured, however, that the responsibility for standing up and saying 'no' rests firmly on the shoulders of people who know about the issue and care one way or the other. That's you! Plenty of non-drivers and environmentalists will support the scheme because the Government tells them it's a good idea - but it's not a good idea (even for them), and my letter explains why.

All it takes is 5 minutes of your time, I've done the hard work for you.

Thanks
Andy

Chris L

Count me in Andy. Have you thought about setting up an online petition? Might get more coverage.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Will think about it

pslewis

Personally, for me, its a very fair way of doing things.

I run more than one car, I commute to work 1.5miles, why should I pay for some gas guzzler who wants to race around 20,000miles a year?

By the way ............ our mobiles give our location away already!!

Good luck with your protest, I will be supporting the proposals - let democracy decide, I will go along with the majority view (not of SN, of the country )

Pete

Luan Pra bang

Screw the tracker just change the driving age to 25 let under 25's have bikes 400cc or less. and charge 2000 per year road tax.

MattW

If you want me to host the letter with some blurb PM me, you can then just post the link around.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Fallacy

They can provide an "approximate" location but that can be anything from 100m diameter to 15km diameter area.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

...and, of course, you can turn it off. It's a whole world away from knowing that you are going to be tracked, accurately, all the time.

My letter goes into this issue in a lot more detail. Thanks to those of you who have already asked for copies - I need to make a few tweaks and then I'll send it out this evening.

If you'd be kind enough to include an email address in your PM, that would help; I'd expect it's too long for a single PM.

warrenm2

why not just host it?

Trashman

Sure you didn't mean phallousy?

GC8

Back on topic; Id suggest that everyone with an interest lobby their own MP; Im confident that this will have a greater effect than will be achieved by us all lobbying a disinterested minister, using the same letter. 'On-line' petitions are of little use also, as they are easily dismissed: its fair to say that if someone feels strongly about a subject theyll write, anyone can sign a petition.

When you write to your MP or to the minister I would suggest raising the issue of 'designed-in congestion' too. How a government can propose to charge us in order to curb congestion that they actively encourage* is beyond me.



Simon


*Part of the application procedure for central government funding for public transport schemes requires the completion of a study to predict the effect on fuel tax generated revenue loss. If your scheme will be extremely sucessful, removing a substantial number of cars from the road and their drivers onto public transport, it will not receive any financial support due to the resulting loss of tax revenue.

Dont even get me started on the deliberate mis-design of road junctions in order to promote congestion rather than address it. Alongside this the deliberate phasing of traffic lights for maximum disruption seems tame and easily solved.....

unclebuck

Another fallacy (that means lie lewis) as only 35% voted NL. Anyway, as I understand it there will be no vote on this issue. It is to be imposed on us from on high based on a whole raft of other 'fallacies'.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Simon, you're absolutely right - my only reason for wishing to contact Darling directly is that I've already written to my MP on previous occasions and he seems sympathetic, so there's not much point badgering him further.

I would also encourage anyone who has the time and inclination to do so, to treat my letter as a starting point rather than just sign and forward it - although I confess I don't really know how carefully they all get read or logged.

GCollier

And the conservatives in the Thatcher/Major years ever had a majority of the popular vote did they?

I really find it hard to understand why people on this forum are so against the principle of paying for how much of something you use and when you use it. Personally I think that if road pricing makes people just think a little bit about the necessity of their journey and the time at which they make it, then it will make the roads a more pleasant place for everyone. So bring it on.

Gary.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I think the issue is that people already pay for what they use in terms of fuel tax. If the new system is entriely fair, then as a scoobie driver you should be better off. As our cars are more heavy on fuel, we are currently paying a dispproportinate amount for our road usage.

The real issue of course, is that it will be used as an extra tax. You will have to foot the bill of the tracking devices, and I DO NOT want to be tracked. Nothing to do with cash, I do not want a tracker.

I also do not see it helping with congestion, it will just tax those more who already do not want to commute.

unclebuck

There speaks someone who seems to have no grasp of the issues at all. This has nothing to do with 'paying for how much of something you use'. We already pay for that through current taxation. I really can't believe that you think people travel at the times they do because they enjoy sitting in traffic jams. They have no choice because they must get to work at certain times fixed by their employers. There are no alternatives. Road charging will do nothing to alter that. The issue of Road Charging is about the Government on the one hand simply cashing in on a situation whilst on the other providing people with no alternatives but to pay up. What kind of 'principle' is that?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Everyone's entitled to their opinion - but although I personally believe I may be better off under a per-mile charging scheme, I still don't believe it would actually work to reduce congestion, nor do I believe that the infrastructure which would be required to make it work is a desirable one to build.

It only takes a moment to consider why congestion occurs in the first place, to understand why charging motorists for causing it is misguided. Hands up who queues in traffic for fun, or travels at the busiest times without even considering waiting until the rush hour is over.

Road pricing might work as advertised if the flexibility to travel at different times (or not at all) were actually there, and if drivers always had up-to-the-minute information on traffic conditions so they could avoid trouble spots as they occur. Of course, it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to realise that with such measures in place, nobody would choose to sit in the jams at all.

I do no more than an average mileage, usually outside the most congested routes, and in a car with relatively poor economy - so, if the congestion charging scheme works as promised and is revenue-neutral, I stand to benefit financially. However, that doesn't change the issues at hand, nor does it make me look any more favourably on the Government's proposals. I think they will be ineffective in achieving their stated aim, I think they will hit key workers hardest, and I find the idea of having my movements routinely tracked and logged objectionable.

I'm afraid I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. Whether you agree or not, I hope you at least understand where those opposed to the scheme are coming from.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

^^^^^ Exactly what I tried to say

GCollier

Some people on here seem incapable of separating the (fair) principle of road-pricing from the assumption that any implementation of it will simply be a punitive means of taxation.

I really don't agree that everyones aversion to traffic jams is as strong as has been stated, and that all journeys in congested traffic are made through complete lack of choice. You only have to look at the motorway network on a Sunday afternoon or even travel to and park in many retail centres on a Saturday to see that - I don't think many people stuck in the inevitable gridlock on the M6 around Birmingham on Sunday are on their way to work. There are many leisure time journeys I've personally given up making or have time-shifted.

The prevailing attitude towards car usage in many seems to be to simply make any journey without thinking, and we've built up a culture in this country where many people *do* live miles from work and make long car journeys through choice. I'm not arguing that road prices should be set at such levels as to immediately price large number of people off the road or out of work, but in an environment where car usage and congestion are inexorably rising, a means of demand management which will make people actually think about the need for their journey and the time they make it at can only be good.

Gary.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

It seems to me that perhaps where we differ is in the amount of flexibility we believe exists in peoples' travel needs. I'd agree that if more people actually did have the option to travel off peak or not at all, then that would be great - and I doubt very much they'd need an additional incentive to do so. Five days a week, though, my travel plans are set in stone: turn up on time, or get fired. It's that simple.

You make an interesting point about weekend travel; surely if there's so little aversion to sitting in traffic, that in itself raises a question over how far the Govt should go to try and reduce it? Or, maybe drivers don't know before they set out where the jams will be? The accidents which often cause them are random and can happen anywhere and at any time, avoiding them requires better driver information alone.

Where people live together as families, and where people sometimes change workplaces, there will always be a need to travel. In the eight years I've been working, I've had seven workplaces, and most of those changes have been due to office moves over which I had no control. You cannot possibly suggest that I should have moved house every time - can you? (Also look up 'slum' in any good school Geography textbook).

Finally, what so you think of the idea of having your every journey monitored and logged as a matter of routine? Does that not trouble you at all? Do you think the ends justify the means?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

ATTN: those of you who have requested copies of my letter - there are a couple of small errors which out to be corrected before you send it off. You should have received a PM from me with the details already, but if not, let me know.

Thanks
Andy

GCollier

Andy,

I do appreciate that many peoples working hours are rigidly dictated by the nature of their job. But I still think that there's untapped flexibility for people to make changes to their journey times. I work in Finance/IT and almost all of the employers I've worked for have placed far greater merit on a 'get the job done' flexibility than being present in an office 9 to 5. The same goes for my wife who's in HR, and pretty much all of my friends....the obvious exception being my Airline Pilot friend who obviously has no such flexibility! That said I do totally agree with you that more concrete structures could be put in place by many employers, to allow a great many people the option of more flexible working with little or no negative impact on business and the economy, but with great benefits for personal life. Road pricing could even act as a small catalyst to help make that happen.

As well as taking advantage of current untapped flexibility in influencing the necessity and time of journeys, I also hope that road pricing will start to make people consider their journeys more carefully. What's needed is a level of pricing which doesn't make people destitute or force them into a 'slum' close to work, but one which just makes people consciously think just a little bit before they jump in the car on a whim or live 60 miles from work because a house appeals a little bit more.

Yes we could leave things alone because of peoples (apparent lack of) aversion to sitting in traffic jams. Like many systems it will tend towards a state of equilibrium, in this case dictated by variables such as the capacity of the roads, the capacity of drivers to endure traffic jams and long journey times, the price of fuel and the cost of running a car. But levels of traffic do seem to be inexorably rising, and I think radical solutions do need to be sought to prevent the prospect of complete gridlock in the future. A road pricing system will help ensure that the journeys people make will be those most economically viable and necessary which is surely a good thing.

Finally I don't object at all to having my car journeys monitored and logged as a matter of course. I'm sure there are a thousand more personal details already recorded about my finances, health, preferences in cars, wine and PC equipment, what products catch my eye in the aisles in the supermarket etc for me to give any consideration to the fact that some database somewhere records that I travelled to Sainsburys on Saturday or to Amersham to visit friends on Sunday.

Cheers,

Gary.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for taking the time, it's so unusual to actually get a reasoned debate on the internet these days

Your points are well made - you come across as far more credible than Darling himself, in fact (see here) - but I still think such a scheme would be ineffective and would hurt more people than it helps. We have some of the most expensive fuel in Europe and I don't believe people "jump in the car on a whim or live 60 miles from work because a house appeals a little bit more" without considering that.

Andy.

Dr Hu

Who's betting that Tony's children - the one's he pays to vote for him (spongers, chavs, doleys) will get a 'personal transport benefit' to allow them to carry on driving at no cost to themselves, whilst normal hardworking people are taxed off the roads......

(like Mugabe burning down villages that did'nt vote for him......)

Or am I being *really* pessimistic?

Diablo

I would be happy with a road charging scheme of sorts if petrol was 20p a litre and there was no road tax.

If the aim of the exercise is to reduce congestion, fair enough, but the scheme should then only be applied to congested roads, and at a reasonable price.

having said that, leaving the house at 6.30 am, I can travel the 20 miles into the centre of Glasgow in 30 minutes. That's hardly "congestion" but the same journey later on will take twice as long.

The point is, if the charge applies at peak times, all that will happen is that peak times will start earlier and finish later, so timing the charge and flexibility in work will not work long term.

IMO the charge should apply at all times to busy roads, but for lower amounts. After all, why should someone going shopping at 11.00 am pay less than someone who has no choice but to drive to work?

I would also apply a multiplier.

Anyone driving less than 2 miles into the city, say, should have to pay more than someone for whom that last 2 miles is part of a longer commute.

That would discourage people from making unecessarily short journeys which are the worst kind for pollution as well.

OllyK

Interesting, a kind of 50p a mile for the first 5 miles then 5p a mile thereafter. That may act as a good disuader for the hop in the car to nip to the shops that you could walk to in 5 mins type of journeys.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Would you walk 5 miles to the shops?

TelBoy

Whether it's 5 miles or even just 2 miles, that's an excellent suggestion, surely?

Get the school-run off the road. Subsidise school buses.

OllyK

Not 5 miles, but I said...

And I do walk to the shops in town which takes about 10 mins. We do a "monthly" shop at the supermarket to get all the long life stuff like rice, pasta, tins etc and use the local shops for the weekly / daily fresh and either walk or call in on the way back from work.

There are certainly times however, when I think "shall I walk or drive, sod it I'll drive". Knowing the first couple of miles is going to be loaded may well disuade me from doing it, but by reducing the cost after that, the commuters etc don't get hammered to the same extent.

I'm not saying I think road charging is good idea, certainly not as proposed, but it seems a little negative to just say we don't want it without trying to suggest some alternatives that may work better.

suprabeast

Telboy has a point because the school run is a MAJOR factor, we all know how much less traffic there is when the kids break up.

If you wanted to reduce congestion in city centres then start by removing pointless bus lanes, start by setting up traffic light systems that WORK! ( i have a few local which are deisnged so poorly, they create traffic). In our local area, the council have taken it upon themselves to put a miniroundabout at EVERY junction which seems perfectly over OTT and they put those extended curbs that just stick out in to the road at various places... how dangerous is that!