v5 man

iTrader: (4)

Can anyone point me towards something to help my sister-in-law fight a speeding charge case.
She has today recieved a summons for doing 41 in a 30 mph zone, but the offence was in january this year. I thought that any summons/charge had to be made in 2 weeks of the offence.
We do not know who mwas driving, could be Her, partner, father-in-law or possibly even me!?

Im really looking for the facts to help this argument.


Regards, Cliff

ChrisB

A NIP needs to be sent to the Registered Keeper within 14 days of the offence.

The information summons for a speeding offence has to laid with the magistrates court within six months but you could be notified outside that.

Has she any NIP, COFPs or any reminders from the Police force dealing with it?

v5 man

iTrader: (4)

All she has recieved is a NIP today for this offence.

Unfortunately it appears not to be so clear cut after a phone conversation just now It seems she hadnt changed her address on the V5 until feb05 after moving, so its possible this letter has done the rounds

ChrisB

So was it a NIP or summons she's recieved today? They are very much different things!

If the V5 record hasn't been updated or it's company car / van, then the 14 days tends to go out the window.

v5 man

iTrader: (4)

Chris, Just an NIP.

ChrisB

That makes more sense.

Now wonder over to Pepipoo and read the topic called "We Can’t Recall Who Was Driving" in the "Read This First" forum.

You'll need to exercise diligence in trying to work out who was driving (ie ask for photo's, check on petrol receipts or similar, work logs and more) but it is a valid defence.

Edit...

The other option is to drag your heels. What was the date of the offence? I'd presume she has 28 days to respond to the NIP she now has. If she was to nominate you as the driver at the very end of the 28 days, then you should recieve a NIP with another 28 days to respond. That must take you close to the six months (ie you send your NIP back and probably get a Fixed Penalty offer but you could ignore this as it would expire after the six months to lay a summons). Worth checking this path on Pepipoo.

Chris.

rossi_p

iTrader: (26)

I maybe wrong, and I hope so, but I thought a fine of up to £1000 can be charged if you fail to notify the DVLA of an address change for your licence/registration/insurance etc.

Good luck with the case.

FirebirdUK

There is - but I don't think that the courts/police are very observent...

I was taken to court for a double white lines offence a few years ago (I was speeding, but the lone officer couldn't do me for that, so made out I straddled double white lines)

I was found guilty and had to surrender my licence for the points to be applied. My licence (the old paper type) was in about 6 pieces (after going through the washing machine) and was about 2 addresses old.

They sent my licence back (to my new address), with the points hand written on (presumably it couldn't go through their machines). They didn't question the different address on the licence.

Maybe I was just lucky

C 8HEP

hey cliff. send the letter you got back to them and dont sign it.

when they send it back saying please sign it. dont sign it and send it back. it may sound stupid but you arent admitting liability and they wont bother you again(apart from the fact you dont know who is driving,how do they?!

i have got away with this 3 times previous and so has my dad once in my old car!

also my cousin got a letter for the same offence and told the police she wasnt driving and didnt know the drivers details,again it was dropped.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

Don't they do you under S172 now for failing to identify the driver if you do that?

C 8HEP

what if you dont know the driver. he is a friend of a friend.dont know his name but he is insured to drive any car..........?

ChrisB

Unsigned NIP loop hole is dead and burried in England.

mightyyid

Also, the 'don;t know who was driving' issue just gets reverted back to the owner of the car and they are liable regardless. That will never wash anymore...

Little Miss WRX

If you do not declare the driver they will issue an MS90 code fine on your licence.

This is 3 points and whatever the fine for the original offence will be.

I have one on my licence and received 3 penalty points and a 260 GBP fine. Insurance companies aren't too keen on this one.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

What date is on the NIP of the alleged offence in January?

Your sister isnt that far away from timing this out due to the 6 month rule.

Firstly visit WWW.Pepipoo.com and join the fightback forum, post her situation in the judicial section.

She will have 28 days to plan her strategy of defence.

Personally I would request photos by writing this simple letter

" Please would you supply photographic evidence to help identify the driver".

Send this letter in 2-3 weeks time from now by special delivery. When she receives the photos, they might identify her, in which case she can do several things.

1 give in and pay up- that is what the scammers are hoping

2 fight the allegation. lots of fun if done correctly

I believe there is a good chance it could time out, post her details on pepipoo

Andy

ChrisB

That's rubbish. If you can show reasonable diligence in trying to work out who was driving and are unable to decide, then subsection 4 of s172 is your "friend". A poster on Pepipoo was found not guilty on ss. 4 this week (23rd May 05).

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Para4 S172 RTA is probably the most sucessful defence if you genuinely dont know who was driving and can prove reasonable diligence( this for the registered keepr only-see Mohindra ruling regarding keeper).

Andy

Visit www.pepipoo.com for legal defences against NIPs and other traffic violations

Neil W

What is NIP? Is this a speed camera offence.

Also is the 14 day rule correct - i.e. can I stop worrying after this sunday?

MadMark

Cliff - Bad news!

If it was a Camera - you want to ask for the pictorial evidence. Worst case scenario it might identify you as sitting in the back .......

I think you are facing some large potential legal costs if you decide to fight it - so take some legal advice if you want to do this.

On the flip side - it's probably only going to be 3 points and a £50-100 fine so why not just get the one who does the least driving to plead guilty?

Try here for advice: Speed Trap Bible

andy97

iTrader: (1)

NIP- notice of intended prosecution.

You can also be given a verbal nip if you are stopped by the police.

See part of RTA 1988 below

1.—(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—

Andy

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Not unless they want to run the risk of perverting the course of justice or perjury in court. On the other hand if they genuinely dont know who was driving then there is nothing to fear with para 4 defence.

Section 172 RTA 1988

(4) A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.


Andy

mightyyid

Maybe - but what you say is also partly 'rubbish'. If you believe that everyone out there drives a car that loads of other people could be driving every day of the week, then we live in different worlds. I would say that very few people are in this situation - we have our own cars and we drive them. Sharing a car used as a taxi with 5 other drivers - fair enough, but the majority of people own and drive their own cars or driver their provided company car - and not a lot else. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm sure you'll put me right so eloquently...

Adidas

As regards the serving of the NIP. If it was sent to the registered keepers address within the 14 days of the offence, it will be deemed as being 'served'. Therefore, if it was sent to your Sister-in-Laws old address within the 14 days, it has been served in time. It's just taken a while for them to do a further check and found out about the change of address.

Same thing applies to rental, leased and company cars. As long as the NIP has been sent to the appropriate compnay within the 14 days, they have satisfied the requirements.

Hope thats put some light on the subject.

ChrisB

There's a large difference between a genuine situation of not knowing who was driving and perverting the course of justice. I was certainly not suggesting the later, so it's not rubbish in the slightest. Para4 S172 RTA remains a valid defence in a situation like the one posed by the thread strarter.

gljam

is that 14 days including the weekends or 14 working days??
also what if you are on holiday for 3 weeks or so and are not there to sign for the recorded delivery??

DomoKun

was sister in laws car. up to sister in law to lawfully know who was driving her car. if car caught over speed limit she is responsible unless she can confirm who was driving said vehicle.

silly man for driving loaned car too fast or silly girl for thinking driving own car too fast could be planted on other person

The law be broken. Someone has to pay.

Adidas

1) 14 days from the day AFTER the offence

2) Weekends are irrelevent

3) No longer have to be sent recorded delivery. As long as it was sent 1st class.

BTW, if the offence is serious enough, a 'protected' summons can be sworn out and that can last forever. Very rarely used, if ever

HTH

gljam

cheers mate