SupaMiniCupa

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4577087.stm

Anybody got any opinions on the above?

Just interested to see what other people thought!

TheBigMan

Bit of a SIAL but a good topic.

ID cards are a good way to police people that do not need policing.

Will illegal immigrants carry ID cards?? Of course not, only law obiding citizens will carry them - the people that do NOT need policing (...as much).

I feel ID cards should be issued to NON UK members of public so we can identify them, and their stay in the UK can be monitored accordingly.

When Asylum is up, and they are safe to return - they will be required to do so. Having a register of asylum seekers will help manage the situation, the ID cards will be required to be carried by THESE people at all times - not UK citizens.

imo.

ajm

We have debated this ad nauseum but personally I refuse to be forced to carry one, its tantamount to tattooing a barcode on people!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I don't mind having an ID card. But the thing is: it wont answer the issues it intends to solve (ID fraud etc).

It'll just end restricting the freedom of the legitimate law abiding, whilst the criminals carry on as usual.

The system is based on the presumption of everyone being law abiding in the first place when they are issued one. A completely flawed system that is unworkable.

Then it doesn't even mention that Smart cards can be copied and hacked. Not by Joe Public, and not by petty criminals (yet). But by professional criminals, so cloned or stolen cards could indeed get into circulation and mean criminals can benefit further from someones stolen identity.

Scooby-Mark

It doesn't bother me one bit to be honest, I haven't got anything to hide about my identity and only believe that people who have got reason to hide their identity or who shouldn't be here would oppose it.

I would want mine to say english not british or UK though

My only concern is the cost, who will stump up the cost ??

Its not any different to having a photo driving licence. I also have a photo ID card for England fans membership and have to have one for work so don't see the problem.

Mark

SupaMiniCupa

Sorry, didn't realise it was SIAL. I thought it might be, but couldn't find anything recent on a search.

Doesn't bother me at all to carry one, it does concern me if it turns out to be a big waste of time and money etc though...

MattW

My main bug bear is the fact we will have to pay for them, IIRC £85 was the figure suggested.

ajm

So you don't mind being arrested for leaving the house without a bit of plastic then?

Go for a jog in shorts/t-shirt, no pockets.... get stopped by a routine "terror patrol" then hauled down the station and fined for not carrying an id card. That sound ok?

No, spend the time and money pissing off the people that DESERVE to be harrassed, not the law abiding majority.

TheBigMan

FAO - everyone.

The man is talking sense!!

Dream Weaver

Agree with ajm, i've nothing to hide but its all just a ridiculous plan once again to try and rid of some of the crime problems.

Hit the honest citizen rather than sorting out the root of the problem.

As for paying £85 for it, they can kiss my ****.

Scooby-Mark

You don't get arrested for not having your driving licence or insurance details on you, you get a producer.

Scooby-Mark

Agreed, great in theory but the only people who would carry them are the law abiding folk and it would become another money making scam by the goverment !!

Brendan Hughes

Here you go. Once you've read these two, report back

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=389019

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=382098

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

it's another scam. No way will the cards cost £85 each, but that's what they want us to pay, and that's at present prices.

With the UK population at around 60 million, that equates to a nice £5 billion in the chancellor's pocket.

And someone tell me that's not yet another tax?

Also, who will pay for the cards for the kids of poorer families? Why you and I will, that's who!

Personally, I can see this ending in more civil unrest than the poll tax did, and rightly so.

Alcazar

TheBigMan

Nothing wrong with the Poll Tax but that's another thread entirely.

SJ_Skyline

I find it utterly repugnant that I should face prosecution should I choose not to fork out £85 for a card.

Please someone explain to me how cards will help in the fight against terrorism?

Will you be able to use them as some kind of compact portable shield should a terrorist blow themselves up in front of you? Will they have a sharp edge you can use should you discover a terrorist bomb so that you can cut the red wire?

Iain Young

I don't object to having one, but I do object to paying for it, and I seriously doubt it'll do any good. I suppose it may help in areas like benefit fraud, as it would make it easier to identify the people claiming stuff, but it does seem a bit like hitting a walnut with a sledgehammer...

Brendan Hughes

Yeah. Who wants pulverised walnut interspersed with pulverised shell?

ajm

This is where the ID "card" idea will end up...

http://www.4verichip.com/verichip.htm

Brendan Hughes

Yup, my dog has that already.

He's not Muslim though

ajm

The "excuse" might not be terrorism by the time it comes.... other countries are touting the same technology under the banner of "saving lives by providing essential medical records", "to disuade kidnappers!" , security/access control to buildings facilities oh and tracking for "health and safety" reasons!

Holy Ghost

it's a fascinating - and worrying - topic.

to all those interested, below is are copies of the letters i sent my MP (alan duncan), michael howard and david davis in December 2004. i'm glad to say that they've since back-tracked on it (albeit partially) - not that i'm kidding myself that me venting spleen had anything to do with it.

the response from alan duncan was a cut and paste reply that didn't answer my points. ditto from howard's office. david davis on the other hand sent me a short personal letter thanking me for airing views that he broadly shared. interesting.

also attached is my response to both duncan and howard in january, whose initial replies i thought risible and patronising in the extreme. again their response was, to me, unacceptable and evasive. get the impression i'm hacked off? dead right.

if anyone wants to use these as the basis for letters to send to their own MPs, then please feel free. the more the merrier. remember: all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.



***

LETTER 1.

22nd December 2004

The Rt. Hon. Alan Duncan, MP
The House of Commons
Westminster
London SW1A 0AA

Dear Mr Duncan,

Re: ID Cards

It’s with enormous regret that I write this letter. The flawed and supine position that Mr Howard has adopted on the proposed national ID Card scheme is the final straw that has just broken 18 years of my unstinting support for the Conservative Party since I became 18 in 1986.

And you know what? I feel liberated that I no longer have to kid myself that the Conservative Party is a credible, brave or electable alternative.

Where shall I start?


1. The unlamented David Blunkett himself admitted that ID cards will do little to assist the police and the security services in preventing terrorist infiltration. They didn’t stop the Madrid bombings: after all, foreign nationals will not be required to carry them.

So what’s changed? Have I missed something? And what is Homer Simpson (aka Charles Clarke) talking about?


2. The public sector has a terrifyingly bad record in the procurement and implementation of major IT projects – just look at NATS, ITSA, CSA and the Passport Office debâcles.

They’re invariably late, they’re always over-budget and they’re always buggy. The Government estimates three to six billion pounds for a national ID card scheme. That means £20 billion then: five years late, five times over-budget and with more teething problems than a dentist’s waiting room – exactly the moment when the system is most vulnerable to abuse by those who would cause harm or commit crime.

Then taxpayers have to pay again for their actual card, taking the budgetary profligacy at a new level of incompetence. I’m sure the likes of EDS, Accenture and Capita think that the Christmas of all Christmases is about to arrive. And I’m sure the NAO is hanging its head in depressed anticipation of reporting on yet another signal central government failure to bring home the bacon.


3. Iris identification and fingerprints as biometrics are insufficiently secure. History shows that the methodologies of defence are always ultimately superceded by the methodologies of attack. People with the right motivation, knowledge and financial backing will find a way to short circuit and infiltrate the system, gaining absolute validity of identity in the process.

The only secure option for ID cards is by using DNA – and that in itself is only infallible until the inevitable perfection of DNA cloning enables the theft of identity through the literal theft of self. A national DNA database? Politically, that dog won’t hunt on its own. But it can through the backdoor of ‘improvements to the system’ that a biometric-based ID card platform provides. Where does that eventually take us? Naturally to DNA-encoded chips planted under the skin at birth, read by barcode scanner. We can already chip our pets: is it so far-fetched? Do you trust an increasingly weakened parliament to prevent it? Do you trust an increasingly over-mighty government and Home Office not to do it? I certainly don’t and I am not alone.


4. If ID cards represented the security panacea claimed, then surely the Americans would have instituted such a scheme? They haven’t. Despite 9/11. Instead, they have chosen to secure their borders as best they can.

Need I say more?


5. Mr Howard is afraid of being “seen” by the electorate – and parts of the media - as weak on terrorism by opposing ID Cards.

Where’s the intellectual clout gone? What happened to progressive and aggressive opposition? What has happened to cogent argument? Sure you’re up against it with a shamefully biased BBC News & Current Affairs and a broadcast/print media institutionally riven by the intellectual pygmies of the soft left – all the more need for vision and clarity in the party’s communicated stance. But this is nothing short of craven political timidity that shows neither leadership nor principle.

Your party could oppose this invidious, invasive and totalitarian proposal by opting for the root and branch reform of our border controls and immigration; overhauling the inadequate Data Protection Act to allow transparent cross-departmental and commercial data referencing for the security services; and opting out of the ridiculous EU Human Rights Directive that is abused by pressure groups and used as a licence for unscrupulous and/or politically motivated lawyers to print money at the taxpayer’s expense. It’ll be cheaper too.

**

Ultimately ID Cards are good for nothing more than cutting benefit fraud. And bearing in mind that means spending billions to save millions, then they’re good for nothing at all. Your colleagues such as Damian Green and David Davis – plus the 81 Tory MPs that either voted against this week’s reading of the ID Cards Bill or abstained - seem to understand this instinctively. As do the LibDems (their naïvety on everything else notwithstanding) and UKIP.

Biometric ID cards strike right at the very philosophical and social heart of British democracy: it is no surprise that such an idea finds traction with the control freakery and totalitarian instincts of the Left. What is surprising – and distressing - is that it finds traction with the traditional small-government libertarianism of the Conservative Right. This is a bigger issue than the EU, the Euro, Education, the Economy or Al Qaeda. At a stroke, it will turn our public servants into our political masters. And I will not sleepily standby while the Tories actively help Labour frog-march us all into autocracy, state-sponsored coercion and a loss of liberty.

Mr Duncan, you’re an excellent constituency MP – energetic, outspoken, articulate and media-savvy – and you deserve your seat. But while the Conservatives support this Orwellian Bill, however qualified and however reluctantly, I cannot vote for you or support (and defend) the Conservative Party and its policies any more. Your parliamentary party is self-evidently split wide open on this issue and avoidably so: if Tory support in the country is skewed even remotely similarly, then God help you all when we go to the ballot box in 2005.

Yours sincerely & wishing you a very Happy Christmas.


***


LETTER 2 - response to reply

7th January 2005
The Rt. Hon. Michael Howard, MP
c/o Mr Ian Philps
Office of the Leader of the Opposition
The House of Commons
Westminster
London SW1A 0AA

Dear Mr Philps,

Re: ID Cards

Thank you very much for your letter of 6th January. Unfortunately it does not address my original points of delivery, cost, system security and applicability and sadly nor does Mr Duncan’s response. It does not change my decision to withdraw my support for you. Mr Howard’s arguments, while consistent over time, are fundamentally flawed and do not change the fact that the Conservative Party will lose many votes on this single crucial issue and marginal seats will ultimately come under severe threat from UKIP and the Liberal Democrats.

The Prime Minister’s lack of principle or integrity is not at issue here: that of the Conservative Party most certainly is.

Here are the facts: foreign nationals visiting will not be required to carry an biometric ID card - unless you intend to force visitors from known high-risk countries to apply for one by law before arriving. And just how realistic, however tempting, is that? Can you overcome the inevitable playing of the race card? Can you overcome the diplomatic protests and their aftershocks?

We are told all 19 Arab terrorists responsible for 9/11 travelled to the US on genuine foreign national entry visas as a deep cover team. So how can a biometric ID card act as a bulwark against terror when those individuals we most want to monitor and isolate are not covered by the scheme?

It’s pure lose-lose: you can’t validate foreign nationals and you simultaneously legitimise the sleeper or sympathiser who seeks to conceal the terror cell through citizenship.

Instead, the ID card forces a law-abiding 65 year old pensioner from Gloucestershire to “prove” his ID? And you force me to “prove” mine. What about my passport, my driving licence and my NI number? Are they not sufficient? And then we then have to pay for the privilege or face fines/imprisonment. And you agree to this Bill “in principle but with reservations?” Why not just tackle the threat – instead of the rest of us? The ID card is not the panacea you seem to think it is.

That leaves benefit fraud and immigration control: instead of pouring our money into a valueless biometric black hole that nonsensically spends billions to save millions, you should reform the benefits allocation system and get a grip on immigration through the securing of our borders and the information/database unification of the relevant agencies.

Government and public sector are historically incompetent at major IT projects: fact. It comes as no surprise that both are once again limbering up to repeat the past on perhaps the grandest scale ever. And it comes as no surprise that politicians – even ones across the floor - fail to point this out because one hand washes the other and has done in perpetuity. Why are you all so afraid to point out that the emperor has no clothes in this case?

At best, this scheme reeks of yet another white elephant where politicians and civil servants divorced from common sense and the real world are dazzled by the potential of a technology that will not achieve its prime objective. At worst, it’s a long-term trojan horse for the spy-state that racks, packs and stacks its people by barcode and belief.

Tired platitudes, weasel words and sleight-of-hand politricks are no longer effective: the expectation of established and potential conservative voters is now very high. We want principle, value, difference, clarity, commitment and common sense that do not come at the price of liberty. And we’re just not getting it from you. Still.

As a political party, you’ve missed an open goal to nail left wing authoritarianism and compromised your libertarian instincts in one stroke. And if the Leader of Her Majesty’s Official Opposition cannot see that, then perhaps you need a new leader. Or perhaps we need a new party.

Yours sincerely,

Vegescoob

Just like all livestock owners, they want to keep track of the sheep.
Great help to the USA Government if the system is provided by an American company?
Nice times will be when the Police descend en masse on pubs, restaurants, clubs etc. and demand to see ID cards.
Our enslavement as mere tools of the State paid for by us.
I know most of you don't care.
One day you will, but it will be too late.

SJ_Skyline

Remember that the current government has such a great record on delivering large-scale projects like this to-date and within budget!

SD

Excellent letters Holy Ghost, and you really hit the spot with your comments. We're sleep-walking into this one and the effects, principles and costs at stake are far reaching and daunting.

Hopefully Howards replacement will take a harder line on the issue.

Simon

DJ73

If the goverment want us to have ID card's then they should be free , why and how can they force us to pay for something they want us to carry .
does this not infringe our human right's in some way ??
nobody force's us to buy new clothes , car , house , pet's , shoe's etc but they expect us to pay for these card's just because they say WE need them and YOU must have one , f**king *rsehole's

r32

Good letter by Holy Ghost and his objections are factual. I for one oppose this and will not carry a card. Why should I? I have nothing to prove or hide.

It will be too late, Big Brother is on the march it can only get worse.

Holy Ghost

thanks for your kind comments guys. david davis is opposed to ID cards on principle: i sincerely hope that he takes over as leader as this disgraceful piece of fascist orwellian legislation needs to be buried fast and buried beyond all resurrection. else our liberty is fcuked: it's not being melodramatic, it's long-term fact.

if you oppose this legislation, don't rage in silence. preserve your democratic rights & write to your local MP - whether tory, labour or libdem, write to all your local party associations, write to the home secretary, write to the PM, write to your local newspaper, write to the nationals, write to all the heads of news at the BBC, ITN and Channel 4. a single letter template goes a long, long way. for the sake of maybe 15 first class stamps & a little bit of time you can spread the word and make a point - i'm doing it & i urge you all to to do the same.

one of the beauties of the web is its ability to mobilise. in fact, gimme me a couple of weeks & i'll post a full contact list of people who i reckon need to be shaken awake plus another letter template that you can develop yourselves.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

As I've said, if they push ahead with forcing us to pay for these, there'll be civil unrest, and civil disobedience on a scale not seen in this country since the shameful treatment of the miners.

Talking to mates last night in the pub, and these are big Labour supporters, Labour party members etc, neither of them support it if we have to pay for it, and both said they wouldn't carry one, if they had to pay.

Alcazar