Jiggerypokery

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/4284455.stm

Speeding, 47MPH in a 30 zone, and in a bus lane. OK it seems he was on a call.
Driving without due care and attention.

The 11 year-old girl suffered serious head and arm injuries and had a leg amputated, and what does the Pc driver get? £400 fine and THREE points!

W.T.F.

CrisPDuk

To be fair to the copper though, it appears that the child was paying no attention whatever to what was going on around her, when I was at school, the green cross code taught us to be sure to look in the direction of oncoming traffic when crossing the road, even on a crossing!

midget1500

tragic ...but... it was an accident :-(

however, if they are to fine/prosecute him as he was liable for being unduly careless/reckless then at least do it properly and not as a token gesture!

ajm

Tricky one without knowing all the facts. It would be easy to say he got off lightly, but then how would you feel if you had called the police in an emergency and they pootled all the way at 20mph.

Looks like a tragic accident and the verdict is reflective of the the fact that the officer probably could have been paying more attention, as could have the child so it seems.

Jerome

Would you prefer the Police never responded to emergencies with a sense of urgency - obeying all speed limits etc. I assume you will also wish to extend this to the other emergency services.

A tragic accident for which the officer concerned has been punished (and not just in the court). Also, consider these lines from that report:

"Other drivers said they heard the car's siren and saw its blue flashing light."

"One said two young girls were walking "casually" across the road while looking away from oncoming traffic."

OllyK

True but that's why the police have a driver training school in Hendon to ensure that plod drivers are well trained (better than IAM) and so should be relatively safe whilst driving to an emergency as they have better observational skills than Jo Public.

Flatcapdriver

True but children and parents also have their part to play and as witnesses pointed out, the children were looking the other way which raises the question of their awareness given that plenty of others heard and saw the police car.

Jiggerypokery

The lights were flashing amber, and she appeared from the offside, which means she was already on the crossing, walking between the stationary cars.

OllyK

I'm not disputing that, but I would hope that any driver would take extra care at a pelican crossing where you would expect people to be crossing the road, especially when the amber light is flashing.

I wonder how many people continue to look left and right while crossing a pelican crossing when the traffic has come to a stop.

Nexuas

From reading the article it appears that the officer hit the child on a pelican crossing on a three lane carrigeway, two traffic lanes and a bus lane. The girls appear have stepped out from between the stationary traffic into the bus lane while he was approaching, as he approached the crossing the orange lights were flashing... this would suggest that anyone crossing the road would have completed their crossing or would almost be completely crossed and so visible on the crossing???

Eyewitness accounts confirm although in an unmarked car he had blue lights and sirens on... He was also responding to the report of an Armed robbery in progress.

I think it is a case of the girls should have been paying more attention and been looking as they crossed the road.

Jerome

I do. Anyone who frequents central London is well advised to do so.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

The report says the girl was looking the other way.

It is very possible that the sirens could have made her look the wrong way as the reflected sound can make the direction it came from confusing.

I thought Police/fire/paramedic drivers were meant to acknowledge this fact when driving with sirens.

turboman786

Jiggery Pokery....what sentence would YOU think bring this case to justice? Its easy to be crticial, but come on, lets here what YOU would have done?

(I'll help yu with the law before you say he ought to have been banged up forever!)...between 3 and 9 penalty points /or a discretionary power to disqualify....and a fine ...thats what you have to play with.

scoob_babe

I do, the taxis and buses around here think they are above such things!!!
I guess its another bit of missing education that parents don't take reponsibility for.

gsm1

If the PC was so innocent he wouldn't have been fined at all. He should have been extra careful coming to a crossing.

Mr Sympathy

I think most of you missed the bit that the PC "mistook" the flashing amber lights for green, heels bells what would happen if we could all us that lame excuse? Exactly how did the eedjut manage that?

The girl and her family have paid a price for her with her injuries, for one could say, lack of full attention, with a cost that will stay with her forever.

Yes it will stay in the mind of the PC but he is still allowed to do this work when by the courts admission he drove without due care and attention yet in three years time his insurance will not be affected and only given a fine probably less than half a months salary for his lack of full attention.

He has to carry the extra responsibility that doing his job entails and the punishment that goes with it when he messes up as we all do and I think he got off very lightly indeed, I would liked to have seen a short term ban and a much larger fine as suitable deterrent.

Jerome

Maybe, as I said before, you would prefer the emergency services to drive within the highway code when responding to an emergency. A massive fine and a ban would probably cause all emergency drivers to drive so carefully, they needn't bother with sirens and all those flashing lights.

Your house is burning down? Sorry the fire engine is stuck in traffic.

A burglar still on the premises? Sorry, you live in a town centre and there are far too many pedestrians around. A bobby on a pushbike will be along in a couple of hours or so.

Been stabbed? Sorry, the area you're in is a 30 zone. The ambulance will be along in 45 minutes. Try and not bleed until then sir.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

But isn't this what many of us get anyway, and with what excuse?

Alcazar

Jerome

Ah yes, it should read:

An armed robber still on the bank premises? Sorry, you are located in a town centre and there are far too many pedestrians around. A bobby on a pushbike will be along in a couple of hours or so.

gsm1

No one expects the police to drive within the speed limits imposed upon the rest of us. But just because they don't have to doesn't give them a licence to drive however they like. They too have their code of conduct when it comes to driving. If you don't adhere to it then you should pay the penalty. What time would this guy have lost if he had approached the crossing with more caution? - 5 seconds at the most.

Mr Sympathy

1) Emergency drivers drive within their capabilities and safe for the conditions, this guy did not do so on this day and he has to pay the price for that, plenty of capable guys, this chap aint one.
2) Ditto firemen, their drivers are better than police anyway look at what they throw around en route to an emergency
3) You aint never been burgled, coppers do not rush to a burglar on premises unless life is at risk.
4) see points one and two, replace firemen with ambulance drivers

The point you fail to see is that yes risks have to be taken, that is what these people are paid for but they must be balanced, to consider the needs of no-one else important en route to an emergency is negligent, here at least the guy admitted his failure, my gripe is with his punishment and his poor excuses for the accident occuring. A civilian motorist would have been treated more harshly for sure despite being less skilled.

Jerome

To answer your points:

1. You can never have totally "safe for the conditions" emergency driving. To do so, they would have to drive well within the limits of the highway code etc, which I'm sure you'll agree is impractical in an emergency.

2. How do you know that fire service drivers are better than police drivers? Because of what they throw around? Well, apart from the fact that fire engines are much slower, they are also much more visible to other road users - especially pedestrians. Fire engines can be seen over the top of normal cars for instance.

3. I modified my burglary point in a subsequent post to an armed robbery in a bank. I'm sure the bank staff and customers would be reassured to know that the armed response team is driving within all the posted speed limits, obeying traffic signals, waiting patiently in traffic rather than risk an overtaking manouvre etc.

4. I would also be interested to know what makes ambulance drivers "better" than police drivers. All emergency drivers have undergone different training because they have different jobs and different vehicles.


The point you fail to see is that emergency driving - as the name implies - is a risky business. Most of the time that risk is well managed. Occasionally, even a highly trained police driver will make a mistake (Newflash, coppers are human!). Even fire engine and ambulance drivers make mistakes and often, because of the size of vehicle normally involved, the consequences are worse than when a police driver makes a mistake.

You will never have totally "risk free emergency driving" - an oxymoronic phrase if there ever was one.

Dazza01

Just how do you mistake FLASHING amber lights for green lights which don't flash

MonkeyJismTea

The Police car in the accident was an unmarked Armed response car BTW, and theres only 3 in the West Midlands so they drive fast everywhere.

I am a Paramedic and our Emergency driving course is very similar to the police course we even use the police emergency driving handbook, on our training we use different types of vehicles from vans to cars but the emphasise is always on forward vision and safety, i,e better to get there 2 minutes late than not at all.

And interestingly Ambulance drivers have only actually been trained on blue lights for about 2 - 3 years now, before that we just had and understanding with the police that we would train above the speed limit but only 10 - 15% above.

The first time I drove on Blue lights and sirens was to an actual 999 call.

In an ambualnce it is easier because you can see over the tops of cars so can see a crossing before you get to it, but when you drive an ambulance car you cant so you have to slow right down to ensure its clear.

That said if I am driving to a 2 year old child that isnt breathing it only has 4 minutes before brain damage starts, so your mind isnt clearly on your driving and you do tend to take chances its called red mist where the urgency of what your going to takes of the safety concerns you should have.

Although he only has some points and a fine he still has a lifetime of flashbacks to contend with and I would imagine his emergency driving license would have been suspened

Leslie

Bit difficult to pass an accurate judgement without actually witnessing the accident IMO.

Les

Nexuas

I am guessing there is a bit of lying going on here, in his staement he will have propbably said the traffic lights were green, yet in another independant witnesses statment it will say the lights were flashing orange. The above statment taken from the newsarticle will be the logical conclusion of a journalist from the evidence presented...

Mr Sympathy

Good point, but what we need is a managed risk, 95% of the time i think our emergency drivers manage this but in this case that does not appear to be the case and I still feel the punishment was too lenient.

last point made

MonkeyJismTea

Basically all emergency drivers are trained to always be cautious and safe at all times, of course there are times when you don't drive as safe or cautiously as you should, and you just have to take responsibility for your own actions.

Wether the lights were green or amber or Red pedestrians ALWAYS have right of way on a road, and even if the lights were green a crossing is still a hazard and should be treated as such.

At the end of the day its a judgement call and only he knows what went wrong and why.

Giving him another 10 more points and a ban isnt going to give her back a limb, it will just take away another trained officer, and you can bet he won't do it again.

Mr Scoob

Jerome, in what way does it help someone being stabbed if the police car kills or injures someone else on the way to assist?