unclebuck

Tonight with Trevor McDonald

In the second of a two-part special on road safety, vehicle designers explain how cars can now be made much safer for drivers, passengers and pedestrians

See what is planned for us motorists in the up coming Third Term. I shall be watching this with interest and recording it as I suspect this may be a rich source of quotes.

UB

pbee

convinent timing when the majority of "sheep" will be watching den being knocked off

unclebuck

True. It's on the thickie's channel anyway so the majority that *do* see it won't be able to comprehend the underlying agenda.

King RA

You'll find most people are out destroying their brain cells.

Dracoro

All about pedestrian safety so far. Lot's of 'this will save thousands of lives' etc. (I thought they were all down to speeding ) So far, nothing about driving standards, pedestrian education, driver education etc. i.e. trying to prevent the accident in the first place.

ricardo

Ah, they've got to that bit. Everybody can't speed, so two-thirds of the accidents will be avoided. Not sure how Intelligent Speed Adaptation is going to stop people pulling out at junctions, running red lights, and driving off the road...

unclebuck

Interesting that he said the government were 'sheepish' about letting him try one of the ISA vehicles. Almost as if they are trying to keep them a secret.

But, there it was. Pootling along at 30 with a huge tail back of frustrated motorists in it's wake. As the journalist correctly remarked "this is the future" and "if it will save that many lives who am I to argue with its introduction."

UB

andypugh2000

Bah missed it, den got hit with a cast iron dog though does that count and andy hunter fell off a bridge in front of some cars

boomer

I heard that quote, and IIRC they said that two-thirds of road deaths will be avoided. whaaaaaat????

Does anyone know who is funding this ISA research? Do they know that there is a moron (or government puppet, or both)) heading the project

mb

sillysi

If that's the current state of ISA then it's got a long way to go before we see it, IMO. The chap was driving at 50 and when he came to the 30 zone the car seemed to slow do very quickly, almost caught him by suprise. I would have thought it would have slowed down gradually as it approached the 30 zone. In wet conditions it could be very dangerous. If he had been overtaking a car doing 30 in the 50 zone he could have been left in an extremely dangerous position.

I am sure Topgear showed this system on a Skoda many years ago?

As others have stated there needs to be a lot more education of pedestrians. I car hitting someone at 30 is still going to cause terrible injuries if someone walks out in front of it.

Adrian F

Sillysi they have thought of that and are busy lowing all the speed limits so that cars will be going much slower when they hit the pedistrains. this system will stop the problem of enforcing limits with no credibility or public support.

Neil Smalley

I suspect that the value of classic cars will rocket if/when this system is installed.

ricardo

Lets assume that this system is deployed, and everybody has to use it as a condition of insurance. And then lets asume that the much-heralded huge reduction in KSI simply doesn't happen, perhaps due to a several factors:

- most people just driving at the maximum speed the system will allow - all the time, irrespective of conditions
- 'the system will protect me' so no need to pay attention.
- overtaking accidents, you can still try overtake a slower car if yours can accellerate faster when you get to a higher limit...

So after an incredibly expensive and hated rollout of this scheme what excuse will they use to account for the continuing road deaths due to muppetism on the roads ?

ajm

If those cars had been going at just 3mph Andy Hunter might have survived being pushed off the bridge by a rival ganster.

Speed kills!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I watched the 1st bit before I left the house "to kill a few brain cells" thought what a load of tosh.

I saw a clip of the car with the intelligent speed control....a Skoda restricted to 30mph travelling down the road...nothing in front of it....15-20 fustrated cars all bunched up nose to tail behind it LMAO

I mean pedestrian safety wtf? What about Trucks, buses, and vans? And how about educating the pedstrians to look before walking into the road?

And how about the most important?: Get drivers thought patterns to anticipate potential scienarios and getting them act accordingly. A perfect example of this (not pedestrians though...but exactly teh same thing) was a junction by me onto a40mph strech of road is bit of blind junction to pull out. Somebody pulls out of the junction..it was clear at the time but there was a car comming down the road at a rate of knots. He doesn't bother to brake because "he has right of way" It's this stupid mentality that needs to be looked - similar to drivers who don't anticpiate dangers and slow down accordingly. If this isn't addressed, putting 50airbags in a car, 1 inch thick impact bars ABS, ESC, brake assist, crumple zones, "contoured" pedestrian safe bodywork etc on cars is just a waste of time - people will get killed for the same reasons.

This govermnent seems intent of trying to solve the after effects of a problem and not the causes - Bad driving and pedestrian awareness

A girl by me got killed by a bus on a new stretch of one way road (buses/taxis only). From a pedstrian's point of view comming straight out of the mall, traffic comes from the right instead of the left..girl look the wrong way..bang!

Who's fault? The girl, AND the bus driver. the bus driver should have seen her looking the wrong way and slowed. The girl should have paid more attention and look both ways before crossing....where does the fault lie with the bus?
.

hedgehog

Don't let all the talk of safety take your eye off the ball, this is not about safety. This is about control. It is vital that no private car owner falls for the "safety" trick.

While we might like to think that the administration are stupid or unaware that this will result in an increase in road accidents this is not the case at all. They know all about the problems with ISA but they want control over your car. Remember that their ultimate goal is to make private transport such a pain that many of us just get on the bus, unless of course you are a Party Official and can zoom along empty motorways when you like.

Much as I would like to think that "classic" cars will escape from this system I am not so sure that this will be the case. Because it will be linked with the road toll system it is possible that even if the ISA unit doesn't have direct control over your car it will be reporting back on your movements and speed. We may find, for example, that owners of cars not suited to electronic limiting will get a device that is fitted to the dash which flashes a red light when they exceed the limit. If they don't slow down then their infringement will be reported to the central system and they will be fined and given points automatically. Remember the company who are likely to be running the road toll system have just bought all the ITV transmitter masts so they can receive data from your car and its tracking system.

I believe this is why they want to ban radar and laser detectors as they actually want people to install GPS detectors to get us used to the idea of having GPS based speed limiting in our cars. Current GPS camera detectors are a sort of manual speed limiter where the driver must decide to slow down so the ISA system will be sold on "many of you already have a very similar system in your car but this major advance in technology will make the whole thing automatic. You will love it and your government will love you for fitting it..."

I also honestly believe that there will be a lot of people who will support this system either because they have a political position that desires control of all the citizens in a state or because they just honestly think it is a great idea that they need no longer worry about control over their speed, or perhaps looking out the windscreen either. Like many who suffered under Stalin, for example, these people will not know what hit them until it is too late.

The other thing to bear in mind, for those driving high insurance group vehicles, is that the mapping of the country for this system will be complete in September. I would guess it will not be long after that before you will have to fit an ISA/logging device to your car to get insurance. Also bear in mind that the ISA mapping is recording "dangerous" roads for which the allowed limit will be much lower than the posted limit. So, when your insurance company see you having fun on one of these "dangerous" roads with some nice bends don't expect this to come without a penalty. Once ISA is fully implemented you will, of course, not be able to have fun on such a road but in the first few years the implementation is likely to be more discrete.

sillysi

One thing I can't get my head round is how they will be able to prosecute someone who's GPS device informs the authorities of a speeding infringment. At the moment speed cameras have photographic evidence to back any prosecution up if it is challenged. There would be no such backup evidence with a GPS system. From experience we know that GPS is not always 100% reliable. Would a GPS log be enough to prove an offence if challenged in court?

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Not currently it is not but can be used in conjunction with other evidence to support it

hedgehog

The honest answer is that I don't know. In saying that I have found that GPS speed readings are always very accurate, more accurate than a car speedo for example, and so perhaps there have been investigations into the potential for error. As we saw this week in Inverness laser speed reading devices are not 100% accurate either but no one has stopped using them. My guess is that GPS is probably at least as accurate as radar, calibrated speedo or laser, in statistical terms, and that this will be sufficient to get it Home Office approval. Once it would have such approval the device would be virtually above any challenge in court and it is likely that the manufacturers of the device will also be the recognised expert witness should there be any challenge. The expert witness in any case where the current laser gun is challenged happens to be the UK importer for the device and it is easy to understand what his position will be.

Once the GPS system has Home Office approval then it can be fitted to your car and the evidence can be used in court. For example radar and laser guns are often used without photographic evidence so this probably gives a good indication of how it would work and how such evidence is acceptable in court without pictures.

There will probably have to be some changes to the law but to date this has not been a problem. Remember the NIP you receive infringes your basic rights to silence and to not incriminate yourself but it is still legal. These are much more fundamental rights than the "right" not to have your speed determined by a satellite so I would guess that, when the time comes, there will be no problem at all getting such remote speed monitoring accepted in a court.

It is also likely that there will be systems in place to check the GPS unit. For the most part these systems will be to ensure that you haven't disabled it. However, it is likely that there will be some sort of radio frequency tag associated with your number plate and this will be read, occasionally, by roadside beacons. Such systems could also be used to ensure calibration of the GPS unit.

One thing about this is that GPS based infringement monitoring will probably only take place on classic cars. More modern vehicles will not physically be able to break the speed limits and, in fact, on "dangerous" roads will be limited to speeds well below the posted limit. With this in mind the problem will only exist for a small proportion of all cars. From what I can understand motor manufacturers already have the systems in place on their cars to allow the fitting of the ISA units and I would imagine that it will be quite easy to fit them to almost any car with an ECU.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

So, of course, the big question is: what to do about it?

I can feel another letter to my MP coming on.

Vegescoob

Well that'll be a waste of your time. Your MP, whichever party is only concerned about keeping his/her nice comfy, well paid ,well pensioned seat.
To do that they mainly toe the line.
Voters, only of relevance once every 4/5 years.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

What exactly would you suggest then?

Vegescoob

I'm sorry to say that I cannot suggest anything. After many years of thought about our "democratic system" and, at one time even considering joining a party, I've come to the conclusion that the party system is what mitigates against individuals being heard.
It seems that the current 3 main parties are seen as inevitable with it being impossible for any other parties or independents to make any great impact.

hedgehog

There are about 23 million motorists in this country.

What if every single one of them wrote to their MP, or addressed them on the doorstep, with the assertion that they have had enough and would not be voting on party lines but would be voting for the candidate in their area who was most motorist friendly?

What if they raised the issues of congestion being "built in" to allow the creation of congestion charges, of cameras merely for revenue, of ISA remote control and monitoring of your car, of parking having become an extortion industry which may be illegal, of traffic policing standards falling in those areas which still have dedicated traffic police etc. etc.?

How many times would a politician have to hear this on the doorstep before he was on the phone to central office saying "I might have a problem here..." How many politicians would have to phone central office before they would conclude that a change in direction was called for?

So, talk to your mates, get them to ask the same hard questions about their motoring problems. Talk to the people in work who come in late some morning and say it was because the traffic was awful or they couldn't find a parking space. Motivate all these people to ask the same questions and let the politicians know that there are 23 million of us out here, and we are not happy.

Vipa

With you all the way........ one problem though...... 90% of motorists will hate ISA and everything it stands for..... 90% of motorists would rather it wasn't there.... 90% of motorists would rather be in control of thier own speed and 90% of motorists would prefer not to have someone tracking thier every move.......... 90% of motorists though will tow the line and follow blindly like sheep... the 10% who air thier opinions will be ignored and swept under the carpet...

I really don't think we can win this one! although I do feel that technology limitations (even today!) mean that a full blown rollout and implementation of ISA is probably 20 years away... I have no doubt it will come... that is the future of private transport and long term it's not about safety or speed control... it's about bringing order to chaos....(watch the movie Minority Report to get an idea where I'm coming from)

With ISA and more importantly a fully integrated 'controlled' transport system you could have many more times the traffic on the roads as today and rather than cause more congestion (which is what happens today) the system will just make allowances for the extra vehicles, congestion would be reduced, journey times reduced, pollution reduced RTAs reduced (remember I'm talking here about something way beyond ISA but a system like this needs to start somewhere).... however much I wouldn't want a 'Minority Report' type of private transport system I really can see how it could be of benefit to everyone... ISA is just the first step...

From a driving pleasure point of view.... well..... the race tracks are going to be busy as more people will be doing track days.

I think the first and most painful impact of the system will be the automated penalty system already mentioned on this thread.... this type of GPS based speed detection could probably be rolled out fully within 2-3 years and remember.... this type of system would be with you all the time you are driving, fining and endorsing your licence with every transgretion! so in some ways.... ISA to me would be preferable... at least then you CAN'T get done!

Paul

PS... Forgot something.... Did you know that Europe (yes.... even Britain are taking part in this one!) is currently in the process of launching the satelites for it's own GPS system (think it goes live in 2008)... funny that! I would therefore anticipate ISA to go live in some form or other 2009/10???

Why go to all that expense and trouble when the US system is pretty damned good (apart from it being american) unless you want it to do things the US system was never designed for!

Just a thought

Sith

We take to the streets and protest. It worked for those who didn't like the Poll Tax.

Bring London to a stanstill. Gridlock the capital, think of the money that will be lost. If this is done enough times then the Gov will have no option. The French are very good at protesting. It's about time the British public learn't and made their voices heard.
But judging by the turnout at the elections people will shrugg their shoulders and accept the destruction of our civil liberties and freedom of expression. In the the end the Anti everything group will win. We wont be able to pass wind without permission.

The dictatorship is comming to this country. Communism is comming.

Slowly we are being manipulated and controlled by the powers that be.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Last year I attended a residents' meeting at the local college, the agenda being to discuss the college's relations with its neighbours and to provide a forum for local residents to air their concerns. It was attended by about 30 people plus a couple of council officials.

IMHO the college is a good neighbour, and apart from the kids who shove litter through my hedge I have no complaints. So, to my mind it was questionable whether or not it was worth my while spending the evening to attend. Clearly most of the other residents didn't bother.

The discussion, however, soon switched to the topic of the local roads and their safety and congestion. There have been a couple of accidents lately - one due to someone failing to stop and give way at a mini roundabout, and another due to someone running straight out in the road. Neither had anything to do with speed, of course.

So, imagine my dismay when one of my neighbours called for a speed camera to be installed - just as she had done the previous year too.

Had I not been there, that's the only voice on the subject the councillors would have heard. So, what are they to do?

The previous year I pointed out in a follow-up letter to the council, that the mini roundabout in question wasn't clearly visible from a distance, and that the speed limit for our street wasn't clearly signposted. Both issues were resolved.

My point is, sometimes they do listen, so it's up to us to ensure that they don't only hear the voices of the vocal minority. There will always be those who mindlessly chant 'something must be done', but we have a voice too and must use it.

Dracoro

Acutally, many would argue that it wasn't the protests that stopped the poll tax. What stopped it was the cost of getting the money off the non-payers and the cost in bringing court cases against them etc. The 'protest' that is needed is motorists REFUSING to fit these devices to their cars (or remove them if they come with these devices etc.). If enough people do this then it'll be too costly for the govt. to persue things. The govt. will listen to money and votes (well, every 4/5 years).

Or create (or vote for) a different party.

Leslie

I saw in the paper today that they have now realised that they cannot afford to lose the revenue from car road fund (thats a laugh) tax, petrol taxes, insurance premium tax etc., to encourage too many people to switch to public transport instead of cars.

Les

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Hm... heaven forbid that revenue should be raised by a fair and visible tax that everyone pays according to their ability, rather than an indescriminate tax on the very act of actually going to work. I'll be sure to mention that too.