VTEC to Turbo

If you are thinking of voting Labour in again read this and hopefully you will see sense and see what a shower in incompetents they really are.......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...259242,00.html



A small snippet from the times article.....



"He took all the big decisions on pensions. He has wrecked the system of private pensions; he has wrecked the system of public pensions; he has destroyed the system of savings; he has taxed pensions by deliberate stealth; he has impoverished generations of old people, past, present and to come. Brown’s pension policy has been one of the great disasters of British financial history. He must be held responsible."

"Of course, ministers have not had their pensions stealth-taxed nor have Members of Parliament, nor senior civil servants. But all private-sector pensioners ought to regard Gordon Brown as the enemy. "Of course Blair, Gordon and the rest of them are unnafected on there final salary pensions"

--------

I can not believe that this has been allowed to happen, we'll all have to work till we die.......

What are your thoughts? did you know this was happening? would you still vote labour now you know this?

Leslie

It is certainly pretty plain to see, the pigs certainly are controlling "Animal Farm" to their own advantage!

Time they were kicked into touch.

Les

tiggers

Trouble is that believing that voting them out and someone else in is going to solve these sort of problems is just naivety pure and simple. This country has been heading down hill for a very long time and the political system and all the parties involved have played their part.

Problem is most of the electorate still cling to the belief that one or other party is good for them - for some reason they can't see or maybe don't wnat to see the bigger picture.

Sad, but true.

tiggers.

VTEC to Turbo

Tiggers

Did you actually read the article????????????????

Brown has been Stealth taxing private pensions to the sum of £5 billion a year! This is something the Conservatives would never do.

It was one of the strongest financial systems in Europe. For the past 8 years they have have £5billion less a year to invest!!!

That equals a massive shortfall that will hit most of us hard working people when we come to retire!

Are you a senior civil servant per chance??

gsm1

I'm not an expert on the subject of pensions and William Rees Mogg banging on with clever language and his own rough figures doesn't really say much to me.

Iain Young

So if the conservatives get rid of the 5 billion a year stealth tax, what are they going to do about the 5 billion shortfall they'll have in their budget. Probably cut public services and implement a completely different steath tax somewhere else.

The problem with this country is that there are too many people sponging off the state, (I can show you many people around where I live that have never done a days work in their life, never intend to, and get a free council house in the bargin). The money has to come from somewhere...

(p.s. I'm not sticking up for Labour, I just don't think the cons or lib-dems would be any better - they're all as bad as each other in my book)...

ajm

That's because you voted for Labour, and now you are burdened with having to show them in a good light or face being blamed for what they are doing to this country and our civil liberties!

gsm1

When have I ever banged the drum for Labour here?

VTEC to Turbo

Not having a personnal pop at you but here is another source with the same figures. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that it is not happening and that you will not be effected by it!

http://www.killik.co.uk/page.aspx?page=429

EvilKyote

Yeah it is absolutually terrible. Hate this government and what this country has come to, it's a complete disaster and a lesson for the rest of the world in how not to run a country or more acurately 'How to **** up a country, and squeeze it's citezens for every penny they are worth'.

No doubt pslewis will be along any second with his damned 'I love blair and labour, they are so great' speach.

pslewis, if you love blair so much why don't you marry him?! I think it's about time you took your head out of your ***, or blair ***, which ever it is in, and take a look at the real world and what a big **** up labour are!!!

SJ_Skyline

There are many many more stealth taxes that our grubby little chancellor has introduced, married couples allowance has been erradicated, private care of the elderly has been messed around with, Peps, Tessas and ISAs have been screwed (as of tax year 06/07 you can only invest £1000 max p.a.)

If someone made a list of these and it was widely published then I think he would be "spending more time with his family"

....or someone else's family as was the case with Blunkett

Iain Young

What a well reasoned argument you have there EvilKyote.

I'm agree totally that Labour aren't exactly doing a great job, but what I've failed to see in any of these discussions is why you think the cons or lib-dems would do any better?

unclebuck

New year - same old 6th form common room crap.

The country was actually doing quite well fiscally until the present shower got their grubby mits on the levers of power.

Sad but true?!? Give me strength...

ajm

You come across as being a bit left wing and anti conservative to me, so if you're not part of the solution you must be part of the problem!

VTEC to Turbo

It's 5 Billion a year for the past 8 years! First of all they will have to take the blame for it when they are in power because the effects of Brown's policies will be felt after he is out of the picture. Then the Conservatives will have to implement sound economic policy to rectify the shortfall in pensions. It will take decades to recover from this, if ever! Public services are a different matter - start by cutting all the PC - red tape that has been forced upon us.

Couldn't agree more, direct taxation that can be seen is the way forward (trouble is most people are too stupid to see the overall picture - we are paying more tax than ever under this government)!

I'd like to see benifit stopped if out of work for no good reason, longer that a year or so!

Get rid of the culture of living off the state, people will soon start to work if they are hungry! And for those that want to mugg your granny instead of find a job, thrown them in jail for a decent period of time working in a chain gang or such like!

HARSH but fair!

Iain Young

But public services and the NHS were (believe it or not) a lot worse than they are now, and there were far fewer people sponging off the state than there are now.

You can't use history to prove that the cons would do better than labour now. The parties are made up of completely different people, they have different policies, and the world situation (both politically and financially) is completely different to how it was when the cons were last in power..

tiggers

LOL - no I'm not a civil servant and yes I've read the article.

You can work yourself into a lather all you like about what Labour have done and what the Conservatives would never do (although how you know this is beyond me), but my point is that with any government/party in the UK what they giveth with one hand they will take away with the other - they are all short termists and all driven by personal greed.

If it's not the pensions it will be something else. You can seek comfort in voting for another party, but I don't think that in the long term you'll find any. This country is suffering from a woeful lack of long term vision and investment probably since WWII if the truth be know and there is no quick fix certainly not with the current crop of point scoring politicians no matter which party they belong to.

Anyway that's just my thoughts. Not saying what has happened is right, just saying I don't think it will get any better no matter which way you turn.

tiggers.

Iain Young

Totally agree with you there

SJ_Skyline

Found a few more of Mr. Brown's "highlights":

Mortgage interest relief (Miras) cut and then abolished (1997, 2000 Budgets)

Stamp Duty increases on property transfers - up from 1 to 4 per cent on larger properties (1997, 1998, 1999, 2000) (4% band is now at £250,000, this affects many more properties seeing as the housing market has been over-inflated by governmental policies.)

Tax on company cars increased through higher car and fuel scale charges (1998)

Dividend Tax Credit withdrawn (1997) - reducing income to - among others - charities, pension funds and the elderly living on dividend income

High mileage discounts for company car drivers reduced (1999)

National Insurance rates rise 1 per cent - and new 1 per cent charge introduced on earnings above upper earnings limit of £31,720 (announced 2002 for 2003)

Stamp Duty Land Tax of 1 per cent levied on accumulated rental premiums over £60,000 (from December 2003)

Income tax to be levied on assets transferred into trusts where the original owner continues to use those assets (proposed in 2003 pre-Budget statement, possibly in place now)

Source - Guardian online of all places!!

I guess at least with the sleaze associated with the last Tory government only one person was being fcuked!

tiggers

Yeah things were just peachy all round weren't they?

VTEC to Turbo

What gives you that impression.

MRSA is new to Labour, because they have more managers than doctors. They aren't even cleaned under new labour, which is the cause of MRSA!

They fiddle the figures to make you think that the queues are shorter..


Media spin and hype mate, just because you throw more money at something doesn't make it any better.

Anyway back to the topic of the thread. If you are a late comer to the thread please read the link in the original post.

ajm

Are we going to have to separate you two?

tiggers

LOL

No I'm done. Like I said the other day I genuinely have more important things on my mind at the moment and hence I've not got the time or the inclination to get involved in what is essentially metaphorically banging my head against a brick wall.

Thanks for the thought though

tiggers.

MJW

Strange that no one has mentioned that the original reason private pensions started to slide in the first place was bad investment and bad advice in the glorious boom-bust Thatcher years.
State pensions have been doomed for years, irrespective of which political party is in power ; when the welfare state was introduced in the early 20th century it was pretty uncommon for people to live beyond 65-70 and therefore it seemed like a good bet. Not the case in this day and age, but no political party has the bottle to just pull the plug on the system once and for all.
Paying into a pension scheme now is like pouring money down the drain. IMO people should look to other investments to cater for their retirement rather than relying on the bullet-ridden welfare state and commision-hunting scumbag IFAs. Either that or just spend all your money now - who knows, by the time your retirement comes there may be some sort of Logan's Run type compulsory euthanasia scheme in place

Iain Young

From personal experience of the NHS, that's how.

So you're blaming the government because people aren't washing their hands. I agree that the MRSA bug is a big problem though. I've got closer experience of this than you might think seeing as my aunt has recently died after catching it

So does everyone.

Agreed. I don't believe any of the hype or media. I was just going on personal experience with my local hospital.

I did, and what I said still stands. Yes I agree that the stealth taxes are not great news, but I fail to see why anyone thinks the other lot will do any better.

unclebuck

A major political insight there from mr 'important'. PMSL



BTW - VTEC to Turbo has it about right.

unclebuck

No one knows. What we *do* know is that no one could do it worse than New Labour (except the Lib Dems). All that currently matters is that NL are removed from power before they do more damage than they have already done. That's *all* that matters.

UB

VTEC to Turbo

Good, good!

To a certain extent I agree with you, the thing is I would prefer clever people who understand fiscal poilicies and the consequences of their actions to govern this country! We are however paying much higher taxes now and things are not better.

Labour in my opinion are like the stupid person in a school class room that makes jokes all the time and gets c+ for projects. Not really good enough guys, you are in a position that actually matters and makes a difference to peoples lives. Let the people with some intelligence take control again.

I respect the government that pushes hard working ethics, for people to get out there and earn a living. Yes we all have to pay taxes, but at least you knew where you were paying it under the Cons.

VTEC to Turbo

Yes I am blaming the present government - miss managed money in the NHS is a direct result of MRSA. Targets and cost saving are the only factors that seem to be taken into account, not the quality of the work done! (cleaning of the wards in this case). MRSA is new to Labour. Genuinely sorry to hear that!


Which is why they are still in power doing damage!

tiggers

To a certain extent I agree with that, but I want a government that goes further than that -

one that makes sure what as a nation we do want.

one that is not scared to say, for example, OK if you want a world class rail system we are going to have to spend £x million and in that case income tax will have to go up.

one that isn't scared of the media

one that having agreed to fork out £x million for somehting doesn't let costs spiral out of control and holds people to account for their actions

one ....

well you get my drift.

Basically I want a government that wants what is best for Britain and the long term future of its people not a bunch of short termist greed driven career politicians.

My problem is that in my lifetime we have never had a government like that and in the current scheme of things I don't think we ever will have.

I know this has got away a little from the original thread, but it just frustrates me when I think that all we're going to do is vote one lot out and another lot in, but little overall will really change.

tiggers.