Brendan Hughes

Parliamentary democracy in action.

"Charles Clarke last night survived his baptism of fire as home secretary when the controversial identity cards bill he inherited from David Blunkett won a Commons vote 385 to 93 - despite scorn, rebellion and mass abstention on both Labour and Tory benches.
Though 19 Labour MPs, mostly leftwingers, voted against the bill and many more were absent from Westminster on the last full day before the Christmas break, it was Michael Howard's authority that was most battered.

With all 55 Liberal Democrats refusing to back a bill condemned as costly, illiberal and ineffectual, 10 Tories ignored his call - which split the shadow cabinet - to vote yes. A further 72 MPs, almost half his parliamentary party, found constituency carol services to attend or other excuses not to vote. "

And they are paid how much to represent their constituents on matters of national legislation??


"Mr Clarke made it plain that, subject to a future vote, ID cards will have to become compulsory - and that those MPs who oppose compulsion should vote No now."

These things are still a joke. Introduced in 2008, compulsory to own perhaps from 2012... but no compulsion to carry them!

From the BBC: "When repeatedly pressed on how the scheme would help police if people did not have to carry the cards, Mr Clarke said officers believed it would make their job easier. "

Great - how many billions spent, based on "officers' beliefs"?



A Russian friend wrote to me today to wish me Merry Christmas. She's studying in the US. "I went to the Russian consulate here to get my foreign passport renewed and unexpectedly got under interrogation with bullying "We won't renew it unless you report on your occupational acitivies for the past 12 years"?!! Er, I can try to argue with that... "You want to argue with police and FSB?!" The woman had a great time."

Just imagine - your passport isn't renewed unless you give details of employment (and they check your taxes) for the past 12 years....

suprabeast

All about money and monitoring everyone... wont stop terrorism or anything other crime...

Senior_AP

As above.

Great......at monitoring normal, law obiding citizens.

Question - if I'm out "jogging", must I carry this thing on my person?? Surely you can't be forced to?!?!?

Brendan Hughes

SJ_Skyline

Topical, especialy with the proposals for SOCA to swear allegiance to the home office and not the Queen....

ajm

That is the real human rights issue. If they make these cards compulsory to carry then they may aswell tattoo barcodes on us.

Senior_AP

It's not always convenient to lug this **** around on my person.

Bollards to them, I'll have it when out on the lash but otherwise fooock 'em. I didn't vote Labour so bollards to their policy. Though Conservatives also agreed with them

warrenm2

we're f****d any which way - dont want Labour, Tories are just as bad (even though Im a traditional Tory), Lib Dems will never get into power as they're just as barmy, just quieter about it, which leaves the UK Independant party, or the swivel-eyed loonies as someone put it. Great. Cant you just feel democracy working for YOU!?

CustomScoobyIOM

Im all up for it if they enforce it and make it a policy that we carry one. If you have one by choice then thats just stupid.

Either all or nothing.

What's the problem with carrying another ID card?! Bank cars, driving license etc. etc.

Senior_AP

Cos I've got enough crap to carry around. I'll need a over the shoulder bag like a bint at this rate.

warrenm2

'cos it wont meet its stated objectives and costs huge amount of your taxes? or, or, or etc.

Markus

As others have said on previouis threads, it's not going to solve the problems it's being crerated for.
Would be better to just folow the Aussies and have a nice big boat somewhere, chuck all the illegals and asylum seekers in there. Then sink the fecking thing, problem solved.

Oh, it's xmas? Bah Humbug!

Leslie

You obviously don't undersatnd that the information on yourself that this identity card will give to the authorities. At the press of a computer key they will be able to check every detail of your personal life. That is the real basic reason for making them compulsory.

That is really too much information and power to hand to any goverment. These people are control freaks who want to know where you are and what you are doing at all times.

They are dismantling the protections which were built into the laws of this country over the centuries and you can be sure it is not for our own good.

These cards will do the square root of nothing at all to stop terrorism or crime. That is not the real reason for instituting them.

SJ_Skyline

You are making the assumption that the government will manage to implement this extremely expensive, complex IT project. Shall we have a look at their track record on delivering complex IT projects?

ProperCharlie

It seems to me that the basc choice is:

1) Accept that we live in a police state and make it compulsory to carry an ID card at all times. This will make it easier to clamp down on petty criminals, benefit cheats etc. The question is whether you think it is worth giving up some of your civil liberties for this.

2) Have some namby pamby half *rsed non-compulsory system that will be a complete waste of time and money. As Brendan is implying, it is the second option that is being proposed.

suprabeast

Cos if i wanna walk out the house with absolutely nothing but myself wearing a pair of shorts with a football in hand. That should be my right to do so.

ChrisB

Mystic Chris says EDS will win the tender, the project will be late, over budget, a right dogs-dinner and possibly be canned.

I'm off down to Ladbrokes to have £10 on this

Vegescoob

In a nutshell.

speedking

And you will have to pay £100 for a card that you can stick in a drawer and never use

And when you forget to inform them that you moved house you will be fined £1000. And if you change residence frequently they will probably introduce a charge to cover the administration (see under DVLA).

ajm

The government usually uses EDS to f*ck up systems designed for paying OUT money. For example their Child Support Agency and Housing Benefit systems were so bad they couldn't pay anyone any money. Convenient really!

No doubt we will have to pay for these daft cards, and subesquent renewals so I expect the payment facility will be on time and work flawlessly. The actually functional side of things will be clusterf_cked however. Our names will most likely all be scrambled up, along with the expiry dates, meaning premature renewal notices being mailed to millions of people threatening prison if they don't pay up to renew their already brand new cards.

The current Home Secretary will shirk all responsibility for the issue, choosing to blame the nearest chief constable instead. EDS and the government will be locked in protracted arguments and courtcases over the contract and our taxes will go up as a result.

Meanwhile, as we walk around with our "government asset tags" hanging around our necks, being stopped by police every 10 yards to make sure we are carrying them and to ask us whether we are criminals or not, ******* will still be breaking into our houses and making our lives a misery.

What a vision of the future!

Brendan Hughes

Sorry, Ladbrokes don't take bets on dead certs.

Geezer

Why should it be? Why shouldn't it be my right to not have a driving licence to drive? Or smoke dope in public? Or walk naked with an erection past a primary school? Doesn't make me a kiddie fiddler, just happens to be somewhere I want to go past on my way somewhere else.

We are restricted by lots of things, this rights business is a load of crap. You don't have many rights to be honest, we just all live within the boundaries that our governments/society sets, and we think we are free within those boundaries, but we are not. When those boundaries change, everyone starts to whinge about infringement of their rights, but they never really had many in the first place!

Geezer

ajm

Not true, we do have rights, we live in a free society, that is to say we may do anything we please unless it is forbidden, namely something we as a society choose to forbid. To get something onto the forbidden list it should be something the majority of us agree should be forbidden.

The more the government goes down the route of banning things or making things compulsory without actually asking us what we want the closer we get to losing our liberties. The longer the list becomes the closer we get to the principle that we may do nothing unless expressly allowed. That is not freedom.

The more people like you question your own rights to do something the more likely you are to roll over and have them taken away. Indecently exposing yourself to a load of kids is not a fundemental right as any reasonable person can see that you would cause distress by those actions.

Being able to leave the house carrying no ID in a manner that is causing no harm to others is a fundemental right however, and to give it up for no good reason is abhorrent.

CoobyS

Can anyone answer me what problems ID cards trying to solve?

???

Freak

labours cash flow

Geezer

But we do not live in a free society at all. I do not believe that the general public has been given a vote and smoking dope, yet it is a restriction that has been imposed upon us. All of the restrictions (or infringement of our rights, if you like) are discussed by parliament, voted upon and then passed or not. We only have the freedom to choose once every 5 years or so who gets to sit in that chamber and decide our future without consulting us.

Each successive govt. forces laws upon the population that are unpopular, and only when we get so pissed off with them, we then vote in the next lot to start the cycle again.

You are only given the freedom that you are allowed, and that is not really freedom.

I don't necessarily agree with the way it works, but that's how it is.

Geezer

Flatcapdriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by CustomScoobyIOM

Im all up for it if they enforce it and make it a policy that we carry one. If you have one by choice then thats just stupid.

There are many issues at stake here:

• The first problem is that this is another example of the Government being less than honest in justifying the ID card because they are making a big deal about this being voluntary, at least initially with the long term prospect being the voluntary carrying of the document. If its voluntary to carry an ID card, the what's the point? If you're stopped by the Police who ask you to produce the documents (in a simlar way to a producer) only an honest citizen is going to bother whilst the criminal element will simply ignore the request - so how will this reduce crime or make it harder for illegal immigrants to remain within the system? The simple answer is that at some stage in the future legislation will be introduced to make it mandatory to carry ID cards which makes the current Government's claims somewhat disingenuous if not completely misleading.
• The criminal fraternity will simply ignore the whole system and completely bypass it when it suits them or if need be, either forge the document or hack into the system and amend details as it suits them. Failing that, get someone on the inside to do it for them just as information from various databanks is distributed to them now.
• The ID card itself is simply a red herring in that its the biometric details that the Government wants. Just imagine having all that information about the population on one database - can you imagine the potential for abuse? Its staggering!
• Its a complete waste of money and liable to be another white elephant given successive Government's inability to manage large IT projects, either from a cost or application point of view so its going to cost a hell of a lot more than the projected £85 million that I keep hearing. Where ID cards are used in Europe such as Spain or France, ID cards are required when cashing a cheque whereas the only document I have to produce is my driving licence. If that is sufficient to prove my identity, then why have yet another form of ID when it would be far easier to make the carrying of a passport mandatory.

Several questions for you:



Why is the UK the only country planning to introduce ID cards in peacetime, when its been proved in other countries that it doesn't prevent terrorist atrocities, nor does it do much to combat fraud?



We are the most watched population in the world thanks to the plethora of CCTV cameras aimed at us and yet crime levels have still not declined as a result of their installation? This is another example of bureaucracy gone mad.



Where is the evidence that proves a reduction in crime will be the result of the introduction of ID cards? Where is this evidence?

Flatcapdriver

Sorry about the last post. It wouldn't accept the post so I copied it into Word and then pasted it but for some reason it comes out in different fonts?

Brendan Hughes

That's alright. It's the NSR "Is he really smart or does he just copy and paste someone else's arguments?" alert

TelBoy

Benefit fraud and illegal immigration to name but two. If those two are eradicated, bring in ID cards tomorrow, i say.