Im in the poo-poo, got caught speeding
06 December 2004, 07:29 PM
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Im in the poo-poo, got caught speeding
Ok, turned off the M1 J24a onto A50 on Sunday morning, going to meet the others at the Clock tower in Shardlow to do the Santa Cruise04 run, didn't see the ARV T5 sitting at the top of J1 on A50, well according to him when he pulled me over, he explainded to me he was using VASCAR and my avarage speed over 2.37miles was he tracked me was 104.9mph
When i pulled of the A50 onto the A5 i had slowed down to a speed of 68mph, basically was making sure i was going the right way, i checked my mirrors and saw the T5 some 100yrds or so behind me, when he switched on his blues i pulled over to be told the above
Now how does VASCAR work ???
and what sort of ban am i going to expect ???
Not going to fight it, no point as it may result in the ban being extended
When i pulled of the A50 onto the A5 i had slowed down to a speed of 68mph, basically was making sure i was going the right way, i checked my mirrors and saw the T5 some 100yrds or so behind me, when he switched on his blues i pulled over to be told the above
Now how does VASCAR work ???
and what sort of ban am i going to expect ???
Not going to fight it, no point as it may result in the ban being extended
06 December 2004, 07:37 PM
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Vascar is basically a stopwatch linked to a distance recorder. Time/distance=speed.
The system is widely used, but can be greatly inaccurate by as much as 30mph at 70 The copper starts the timer at a given point, and stops it after a known distance and the VASCAR works out the average speed. Only thing is, the copper could start the thing late & stop it early to give a reading of a greater speed. They are all trained in its use, and have to meet specific standards, but IMHO the system is too reliant on hman reaction to be used. Nevertheless, it is used successfully all the time 
At 104mph expect a 7-28 day ban and £250-500, but no other points or endorsements 
www.pepipoo.com
The system is widely used, but can be greatly inaccurate by as much as 30mph at 70
The copper starts the timer at a given point, and stops it after a known distance and the VASCAR works out the average speed. Only thing is, the copper could start the thing late & stop it early to give a reading of a greater speed. They are all trained in its use, and have to meet specific standards, but IMHO the system is too reliant on hman reaction to be used. Nevertheless, it is used successfully all the time At 104mph expect a 7-28 day ban and £250-500, but no other points or endorsements www.pepipoo.com
06 December 2004, 07:38 PM
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When he sees you and starts following you he will start the VASCAR timer as you go past a particular point (could be going under a bridge, could be going over a white painted square on the carriageway). When he goes past the same point he will start the distance recorder. A couple of miles further along he will stop the timer as you go past another "landmark". He will stop the distance recorder when he goes past the same point.
Time and distance are now known, so the machine then tells him your speed.
Time and distance are now known, so the machine then tells him your speed.
06 December 2004, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by corradoboy
At 104mph expect a 7-28 day ban and £250-500, but no other points or endorsements
and its a long walk home Dear SANTA,
Please throw the list out i gave you earlier, these are now not needed as ot looks like i've got a big fine to pay
06 December 2004, 07:45 PM
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Bad news matey...
your ban really depends on the circumstances, time, how many other road users, visibility, previous, policemans statement etc etc..
I got caught in similar circumstances, doing 103mph on the A500 other end of the A50, first speeding offence, ended up with 7 day ban, 0 points, £450 fine, I just told the beak I was sorry, there was no excuse etc, and I would certainly not repeat it, just hold your hands up and take whatever they dishout... at the end of the day I was happy firstly as I was doing 140mph+ earlier so could of been much worse and it has made me think and "evaluate" my driving style, if driving is important that don't speed!, simple as that, if you do be prepared for the consequences!!.
The ban/punishment can vary hugely, bit of a lottery tbh, I just spent the week doing other things, your recorded speed is'nt too bad or outrageous imo, just sit tight and just say sorry, don't waste time fighting or making up excuses!
Good luck
your ban really depends on the circumstances, time, how many other road users, visibility, previous, policemans statement etc etc..
I got caught in similar circumstances, doing 103mph on the A500 other end of the A50, first speeding offence, ended up with 7 day ban, 0 points, £450 fine, I just told the beak I was sorry, there was no excuse etc, and I would certainly not repeat it, just hold your hands up and take whatever they dishout... at the end of the day I was happy firstly as I was doing 140mph+ earlier so could of been much worse and it has made me think and "evaluate" my driving style, if driving is important that don't speed!, simple as that, if you do be prepared for the consequences!!.
The ban/punishment can vary hugely, bit of a lottery tbh, I just spent the week doing other things, your recorded speed is'nt too bad or outrageous imo, just sit tight and just say sorry, don't waste time fighting or making up excuses!
Good luck
06 December 2004, 07:47 PM
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Corradoboy - I agree that VASCAR is dependent on human reaction and could be subject to a bit of error, but I can't see how it would be 30mph out at 70.
At 70, it takes 2 mins 1.8 seconds to cover 2.37 miles. At 100, it takes 1 minute 25. OK, the copper may hit the button slightly too late/early, but 37 seconds out? I'd have thought that VASCAR gives a very good indication of the sort of speed someone is doing.
At 70, it takes 2 mins 1.8 seconds to cover 2.37 miles. At 100, it takes 1 minute 25. OK, the copper may hit the button slightly too late/early, but 37 seconds out? I'd have thought that VASCAR gives a very good indication of the sort of speed someone is doing.
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06 December 2004, 07:47 PM
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question is..
were you over the ton....
if so... its going to happen
and i can see one of there arguements ..
"yes mlud we followed the said individual for xx miles..."
jp " did he see you?"
bib
" no mlud as we said xx miles"
jp
so effectivly he was traveling blind!!!
kerching...
mart
were you over the ton....
if so... its going to happen
and i can see one of there arguements ..
"yes mlud we followed the said individual for xx miles..."
jp " did he see you?"
bib
" no mlud as we said xx miles"
jp
so effectivly he was traveling blind!!!
kerching...
mart
06 December 2004, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dazza01
Now how does VASCAR work ???
The calculations users is basically Speed = Distance / Time
e.g.
268.2m travelled over a time of 10 seconds works out to a speed of 26.82 meters per second which is basically 60Mph.
The thing to remember is it is an Average speed, not the maximum you reached, your maximum speed could well have been a fair bit higher than the figure they got you at.
06 December 2004, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sti555
Bad news matey...
your ban really depends on the circumstances, time, how many other road users, visibility, previous, policemans statement etc etc..
Good luck
your ban really depends on the circumstances, time, how many other road users, visibility, previous, policemans statement etc etc..
Good luck
The policeman did comment on my driving, saying it was nice cos i actually indicated as i pulled out to overtake the only 2 cars on the road and indicated again to pullback in
Not going to fight it just accecpt what they say, might even take along the copy of scooby mag which the Santa cruise event pic's will be in
06 December 2004, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by IanW
The thing to remember is it is an Average speed, not the maximum you reached, your maximum speed could well have been a fair bit higher than the figure they got you at.
well i won't say what it was but believe me it was a speed which Mr.Shumacher would have been proud of in his F1
06 December 2004, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by IanW
VASCAR/Provida basically work out your average speed taken to travel between a distance, in your case you were clocked over almost 2.5 miles.
The calculations users is basically Speed = Distance / Time
e.g.
268.2m travelled over a time of 10 seconds works out to a speed of 26.82 meters per second which is basically 60Mph.
The thing to remember is it is an Average speed, not the maximum you reached, your maximum speed could well have been a fair bit higher than the figure they got you at.
The calculations users is basically Speed = Distance / Time
e.g.
268.2m travelled over a time of 10 seconds works out to a speed of 26.82 meters per second which is basically 60Mph.
The thing to remember is it is an Average speed, not the maximum you reached, your maximum speed could well have been a fair bit higher than the figure they got you at.
Dazza, bad luck mate, I got caught doing stupid speed once and just put my hands up, its really not worth all the fight and hassle only to lose again in the long run
andy
06 December 2004, 08:28 PM
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Dazza,
Because of the speed that was involved i would say with almost 100% certainty that you will recieve a court summons for this offence, if you do get offered a fix penalty then I would suggest taking it with open arms!
As for fine/points the magistrates gudelines say 6 points, and a fine of approx £400. However it does also say to consider disqualification. If you are going to court, even if you are going to pleed guilty, I would certainly suggest getting some professional legal advice.
Ian
Because of the speed that was involved i would say with almost 100% certainty that you will recieve a court summons for this offence, if you do get offered a fix penalty then I would suggest taking it with open arms!
As for fine/points the magistrates gudelines say 6 points, and a fine of approx £400. However it does also say to consider disqualification. If you are going to court, even if you are going to pleed guilty, I would certainly suggest getting some professional legal advice.
Ian
06 December 2004, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk
Extract from USA Law Paper
VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder) is really a stopwatch coupled with a calculator. Once a distance is entered, the operator pushes a button to start then stop the stopwatch. VASCAR displays the speed calculated from the distance entered and the time measured.
Thus, a VASCAR measurement depends on human input. Therefore, in order to make a VASCAR measurement as accurate as possible, the observer's/operator's reaction time must be as short as possible. (Reaction time is defined as "the time interval between an input signal (physiological) or a stimulus (psychophysiological) and the response elicited by the signal.)
What is considered "normal" human reaction time? First, let's take a look at the best: Drag racers. Average reaction time of (Top Fuel) drag racers at the 1997 U.S. Nationals was 0.124 ± 0.082 second. Imagine that our cop running VASCAR is a super cop, with drag racer like reaction times: What kind of error is introduced into the VASCAR speed measurement by a reaction time of 0.124 second? With the numbers testified to by our cop:
Distance ÷ Real time ± Error = Measured Speed
100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.124= 60.096 feet/second (40.97 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.124= 70.621 feet/second (48.15 mph)
Depending on whether the cop was 0.124 second too quick or too late.
The calculation above takes into consideration only one opportunity for error.
However, the cop must not only start the VASCAR's stopwatch, but he also must stop it. Thus, he can introduce the error twice:
100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.248= 55.928 feet/second (38.13 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.248= 77.399 feet/second (52.77 mph)
Looks like we are getting some error margin here: it is almost 15 mph. But wait a minute: the cop alleged that he clocked our man 66 mph (96.8 feet/second).
If true, the elapsed time over 100 feet distance was 1.033 second. The error in speed reading introduced by human reaction time becomes even more severe:
100 ÷ 1.033 + 0.248= 78.064 feet/second (53.225 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.033 - 0.248= 127.388 feet/second (86.855 mph)
WOW! An error margin of more than 33 mph! And remember we assumed that the super cop in this example has reaction times similar to a drag racer!
Imagine if the cop is only human: Average adults show reaction times around 0.3 second -- it's not even worthwhile to do the calculation. Obviously, we can no longer talk about accuracy and VASCAR in the same sentence. One can conclude that using VASCAR over a 100-foot distance cannot yield any accurate speed reading for the speeds alleged in our man's case. We come to this conclusion even before considering other sources of error, such as visual distortion introduced by the parallax effect.
A little note though UK Police don't take a reading over this distance, theirs is greater, so the reading could be more accurate.
VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder) is really a stopwatch coupled with a calculator. Once a distance is entered, the operator pushes a button to start then stop the stopwatch. VASCAR displays the speed calculated from the distance entered and the time measured.
Thus, a VASCAR measurement depends on human input. Therefore, in order to make a VASCAR measurement as accurate as possible, the observer's/operator's reaction time must be as short as possible. (Reaction time is defined as "the time interval between an input signal (physiological) or a stimulus (psychophysiological) and the response elicited by the signal.)
What is considered "normal" human reaction time? First, let's take a look at the best: Drag racers. Average reaction time of (Top Fuel) drag racers at the 1997 U.S. Nationals was 0.124 ± 0.082 second. Imagine that our cop running VASCAR is a super cop, with drag racer like reaction times: What kind of error is introduced into the VASCAR speed measurement by a reaction time of 0.124 second? With the numbers testified to by our cop:
Distance ÷ Real time ± Error = Measured Speed
100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.124= 60.096 feet/second (40.97 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.124= 70.621 feet/second (48.15 mph)
Depending on whether the cop was 0.124 second too quick or too late.
The calculation above takes into consideration only one opportunity for error.
However, the cop must not only start the VASCAR's stopwatch, but he also must stop it. Thus, he can introduce the error twice:
100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.248= 55.928 feet/second (38.13 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.248= 77.399 feet/second (52.77 mph)
Looks like we are getting some error margin here: it is almost 15 mph. But wait a minute: the cop alleged that he clocked our man 66 mph (96.8 feet/second).
If true, the elapsed time over 100 feet distance was 1.033 second. The error in speed reading introduced by human reaction time becomes even more severe:
100 ÷ 1.033 + 0.248= 78.064 feet/second (53.225 mph)
or
100 ÷ 1.033 - 0.248= 127.388 feet/second (86.855 mph)
WOW! An error margin of more than 33 mph! And remember we assumed that the super cop in this example has reaction times similar to a drag racer!
Imagine if the cop is only human: Average adults show reaction times around 0.3 second -- it's not even worthwhile to do the calculation. Obviously, we can no longer talk about accuracy and VASCAR in the same sentence. One can conclude that using VASCAR over a 100-foot distance cannot yield any accurate speed reading for the speeds alleged in our man's case. We come to this conclusion even before considering other sources of error, such as visual distortion introduced by the parallax effect.
A little note though UK Police don't take a reading over this distance, theirs is greater, so the reading could be more accurate.
06 December 2004, 10:21 PM
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The important points in that quote are that they are talking of timing over a distance of 100 feet. That distance is covered in 1.54 seconds and the error they are talking of is 0.248 seconds. That's around 16%.
An error of 0.248 seconds over a distance of 2.37 miles makes very little difference to the end result. The percentage error is only around a third of one percent at 100 mph. Even an error of 2.48 seconds (ten times as great) over that distance would make no material difference. (around 3% at 100 mph - 3mph)
Not could be more accurate; is a whole lot more accurate for reasons already explained.
An error of 0.248 seconds over a distance of 2.37 miles makes very little difference to the end result. The percentage error is only around a third of one percent at 100 mph. Even an error of 2.48 seconds (ten times as great) over that distance would make no material difference. (around 3% at 100 mph - 3mph)
A little note though UK Police don't take a reading over this distance, theirs is greater, so the reading could be more accurate.
06 December 2004, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Dixon
Dazza, did he have his in car video turned on? Did he issue you with a verbal NIP?
Yes he wrote out a form and told me he's 99% sure i will be summons for the offence
06 December 2004, 11:01 PM
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Yeah, basically VASCAR is effectively operated by pressing a button 4 times.
For example:
1) First press when he sees you go past a landmark like a bridge or a change in road surface
2) 2nd press when he goes past the same mark
3) 3rd press when you go past a second mark
4) 4th press when he goes past the 2nd mark
Then it works out your time (t) between 1) and 3) and the distance (d) measured on his car between 2) and 4) and from that your average speed = (d) / (t)
He can rig it by pressing the button the 3rd time before you get to the 2nd mark, or by pressing the button late on the 4th press so it looks like you have either done the distance in less time, or a greater distance in the same time.
I know this because I got fitted up by VASCAR on the A30 in Cornwall. I knew he did it too because I was watching him from the moment he joined the same road as me to the moment he pulled me. He was so far back in the traffic, coming in and out of view, I didn't think he could possibly be targetting me, but even so I kept to 80, also verified by GPS on my Road Angel. He slowly caught up by which time I was bang on 70 (obviously! ) then he pulled me saying I averaged 92 on VASCAR. 
What can you do? Either pay up the stealth road tax or try and fight it in court. I told him that I knew he had fitted me up and that it was easy to do with VASCAR. I told him I had verified my speed on both my speedo and my Road Angel and he told me "in that case you should get them both calibrated sir - I am an instructor on the VASCAR system"
Yeah, like that makes me feel better then!
Paid up my speed tax to nanny like a good little citizen!
For example:
1) First press when he sees you go past a landmark like a bridge or a change in road surface
2) 2nd press when he goes past the same mark
3) 3rd press when you go past a second mark
4) 4th press when he goes past the 2nd mark
Then it works out your time (t) between 1) and 3) and the distance (d) measured on his car between 2) and 4) and from that your average speed = (d) / (t)
He can rig it by pressing the button the 3rd time before you get to the 2nd mark, or by pressing the button late on the 4th press so it looks like you have either done the distance in less time, or a greater distance in the same time.
I know this because I got fitted up by VASCAR on the A30 in Cornwall. I knew he did it too because I was watching him from the moment he joined the same road as me to the moment he pulled me. He was so far back in the traffic, coming in and out of view, I didn't think he could possibly be targetting me, but even so I kept to 80, also verified by GPS on my Road Angel. He slowly caught up by which time I was bang on 70 (obviously!
) then he pulled me saying I averaged 92 on VASCAR. What can you do? Either pay up the stealth road tax or try and fight it in court. I told him that I knew he had fitted me up and that it was easy to do with VASCAR. I told him I had verified my speed on both my speedo and my Road Angel and he told me "in that case you should get them both calibrated sir - I am an instructor on the VASCAR system"
Yeah, like that makes me feel better then!
Paid up my speed tax to nanny like a good little citizen!
Last edited by ajm; 06 December 2004 at 11:05 PM.
07 December 2004, 01:27 AM
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Dazza, between 100 & 110mph the magistrates can impose a ban OR 6 points, plus a fine. The ban is at the discretion of the magistrates up to 110mph. Do you have any points on your license now? This is critical for deciding what punishment is best for you.
If you have 6 points on your license now it would be best to get a short ban. You would get your license back (maybe after as little as 7 days) with the same number of points and your insurance would only be marginally affected.
If you have 6 points now and you get another 6 points, you lose your license under the totting up rules (12 points in 3 years). That is serious, think of something like a 6 months ban.
If you have zero points and you absolutely must have unbroken usage of your car, then ask for 6 points (+fine). But remember that with those extra points on your licence for 3 years you are at a much greater risk of getting a ban through totting up, one simple mistake on an unfamiliar road and flash-flash, you're walking a tightrope. A second piece of bad luck in 3 years and you're banned for 6 months.
If you have 6 points on your license now it would be best to get a short ban. You would get your license back (maybe after as little as 7 days) with the same number of points and your insurance would only be marginally affected.
If you have 6 points now and you get another 6 points, you lose your license under the totting up rules (12 points in 3 years). That is serious, think of something like a 6 months ban.
If you have zero points and you absolutely must have unbroken usage of your car, then ask for 6 points (+fine). But remember that with those extra points on your licence for 3 years you are at a much greater risk of getting a ban through totting up, one simple mistake on an unfamiliar road and flash-flash, you're walking a tightrope. A second piece of bad luck in 3 years and you're banned for 6 months.
07 December 2004, 01:48 AM
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The reason the reaction time is so low is it is an anticipated reaction. It isnt like stopping the stop watch when someone shouts stop.
It is watching the car approach a point, anticipating it, and pressing the button when it hits the point which can be extremely accurate. Over a distance of 2.37 miles if he hit it a sec late it wouldnt make much difference at all. I have been shown the VASCAR system in the cop cars and it is pretty good, would question on short distances close to speed limit, but not at 100+ over a long distance. THe judge doesnt want to hear it either. It would be usual for them to have video in the car.
You could request Video evidence of it, kinda as a keep sake.
You might find the cop will back you up a bit, empty road well driven, performance vehicle, but still no excuse for breaking the law.
They will consider your job needs etc, but they will want to think they have taught you a lesson. So look like a beaten man, broken, scared and nervous, like you would never do it again.
Good luck.
I have a 6 hour drive this thursday night and have a bad habit of wanting to make it 4.
It is watching the car approach a point, anticipating it, and pressing the button when it hits the point which can be extremely accurate. Over a distance of 2.37 miles if he hit it a sec late it wouldnt make much difference at all. I have been shown the VASCAR system in the cop cars and it is pretty good, would question on short distances close to speed limit, but not at 100+ over a long distance. THe judge doesnt want to hear it either. It would be usual for them to have video in the car.
You could request Video evidence of it, kinda as a keep sake.
You might find the cop will back you up a bit, empty road well driven, performance vehicle, but still no excuse for breaking the law.
They will consider your job needs etc, but they will want to think they have taught you a lesson. So look like a beaten man, broken, scared and nervous, like you would never do it again.
Good luck.
I have a 6 hour drive this thursday night and have a bad habit of wanting to make it 4.
07 December 2004, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Brit_in_Japan
Dazza, between 100 & 110mph the magistrates can impose a ban OR 6 points, plus a fine. The ban is at the discretion of the magistrates up to 110mph. Do you have any points on your license now? This is critical for deciding what punishment is best for you.
07 December 2004, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Dazza01
I have 1 SP30 from 2 1/2 years ago
Good luck.
07 December 2004, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ajm
Yeah, basically VASCAR is effectively operated by pressing a button 4 times.
On that basis, I'd push for the case to be dropped
07 December 2004, 08:37 AM
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Mate of mine got caught in a van doing 105mph and got away with 6 points and a £250 fine.
Pleed for you life mate, loads of grovelling and keep your fingers crossed.
Watch out for wrong time of the month female judges though
Pleed for you life mate, loads of grovelling and keep your fingers crossed.
Watch out for wrong time of the month female judges though
07 December 2004, 09:33 AM
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Time to get into *** kissing mode amigo i am sorry to say
Look very brow beaten in court, smartly dressed but not flash, plenty of eye contact with the judge when offering your crucial maxed out grovel, wringing of hands is a good psychological move as well.
Look very brow beaten in court, smartly dressed but not flash, plenty of eye contact with the judge when offering your crucial maxed out grovel, wringing of hands is a good psychological move as well.
07 December 2004, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dazza01
Didn't notice a video camera in the car ?? Why ?
Yes he wrote out a form and told me he's 99% sure i will be summons for the offence
Yes he wrote out a form and told me he's 99% sure i will be summons for the offence
I'm no expert on these matters, but I suggest posting your case on www.pepipoo.com in the 'Cases In Progress' section. Someone there should be able to help you ascertain that the cop in question was playing by the rules when he claimed to have clocked you at that speed, and inform you about exactly what to expect from the judicial process, etc.
Good luck.
07 December 2004, 03:03 PM
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Cheer's for all the advice, as stated will do my bestest groveling and hope for the best really
Would it be worth approching a solicitor ? as im guilty as charged but and don't want really to pay them a hefty whack as it will be easy money for them, then get a hefty fine on top ? but having said that would the groveling be better coming from me or them ???
and hope for the best really Would it be worth approching a solicitor ? as im guilty as charged but and don't want really to pay them a hefty whack as it will be easy money for them, then get a hefty fine on top ? but having said that would the groveling be better coming from me or them ???
07 December 2004, 03:17 PM
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Location: 2005 sso, 1/4 finals,3rd in 60ft; 2004 sso,semi finals,2nd in 60ft time; 2003 standard car 2nd 60ft
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dazza now on his knees lol;0 sorry to here about it m8ee,i was only joking on midlands scoobies when i said you will be next after marv
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