tiggers

Following many of the political threads on here over the last few months and the ever decreasing turnouts at our elections (with a new record low predicted for the next one) I have been giving some serious thought to Britain's political system.

It seems to me that looking at the two main parties (Labour and Conservatives) that we are stuck with two political organisations whose sole aim is to get themselves elected to government and hence will do whatever is necessary to achieve that regardless of whether it's the right thing to do or not. Basically it is my belief that we are living in a time when both parties are for the majority made up of career politicians who always seem to put their own agenda ahead of that of the people.

Sure we've always had career politicians, but in the past they have always blended their careers with doing what they believe is right for the country. With the last Conservative government that seemed to change for the worse and has, I'm ashamed to say, been continued by the present incumbents. When was the last time you heard a speech from a top line politician where he/she sounded like they really deep down meant what they were saying. I remember Maggie's speeches from 1979 and she stirred the people as she truly believed what she was saying (unfortunately she seemed to fall into the career politician trap later in her career, but that is not a discussion for this thread).

I hear many times at the moment from people who say that we need to get the government out at all costs before the damage they are doing is irreparable. I heard exactly the same comments in 1997. It is my opinion that clinging to the belief that voting another party in will solve the country's problems is at best naive and at worst foolhardy. What's the point of ousting the current ruling party if we're only going to replace it with another party of self indulgent short termists.

I want the country to be governed for the good of its people. Politics should be a vocation like the medical profession, teaching etc. You should only be a politician if primarily you genuinely want to make things better for the people you want to govern not because you want to climb the political ladder etc. etc.

So is there anyway that we can change the British political system such that the country is actually governed for the people, such that the short term political view doesn't always stand in the way of genuine progress and such that once again Britain could be a nation to be proud of?

Your thoughts would be appreciated comrades

Regards,

tiggers.

lightning101

Yes.





Good point, well made

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

tiggers for PM?

lightning101

Nah his box is always full

Jye

Agree with you fully, but I doubt things will ever change. Blair being able to buy a £3.6 million home (which he couldnt afford normally) on the strength of his forthcoming memoirs made me realise what a complete sham politics is, not that I thought otherwise.

Proportional Representation?

The Chief

UKIP

A change is needed

popeye

Well I'm guessing that part of what your suggesting is that potential politicians should have their credentials vetted in some way. I think a start would be that any wrong doings whatsoever and a politican should be given the red card. Mandelson, Blunkett etc....no warnings, gone.

As for how they get there in the first place - I think the trouble is that to want to be a politican you have to be an egotistical maniac anyway, to be the sort of person who wants to rule everyone else's life.

The best you can hope for is that the public are a little bit more selective about the sort of character that they're voting for rather than just looking at the colour of the rosette. I could never understand for example, what the people of Hartlepool saw in Mr Mandelson. I appreciate they wanted a Labour govt but it'd be nice if they could have chosen from a list of candidates rather just one bloke who seemed more interested in mincing about in London than addressing any local issues.

tiggers

popeye,

My problem is I don't really know what to suggest. Agree with you completely on the whole Mandelson thing. I also think that in an ideal world politicians shouldn't have outside interests - they should be there to govern for the people who elected them not their own self interest.

One of the main problems as I see it is the short termism which is driven by the electoral system. If a party were to stand up and present, for instance, a 10 year plan to put things right that plan would have to involve some initial pain due to where the country currently is on a socio-economic scale. Trouble is with elections every 4/5 years they wouldn't last more than one term hence no party will do it.

I guess my question is how can we change the short termism and the self indulgent nature of the current political system. Maybe revolution is the only way

tiggers.

popeye

Well don't worry. I'm sure some Daily Mail reading crackpot will be along shortly to put you straight on all this.

tiggers

The only certainty of Scoobynet

Cheers,

tiggers.

Jye

Agree with Popeye re the 'egotistical' part. I also subscribe to the old adage that anyone who 'really' wants to be a politician should be immediately discluded, never mind their own self interested thinking that they 'need', what many on the UK's average wage mignt feel is an overinflated salary, to attact a better class of politician. Well hello, knock, knock, that's not happening.

The problems also lies with a complete lack of accountability (Blair and Mandlesons recent house buying scams for one), extreme conflict of intrests (Blair will make 'at least' £5,000,000 from his memoirs, even more if he sucks a bit harder on Bush's kn@b and really ***** up the UK), broken manifesto promises, i.e. no tax rises, haha, good one. Giving themselves large self imposed wage rises well above that of nearly every other UK employee, never mind public sector workers is another 'us and them' POS.

We're doomed I tell you, doomed...........

Leslie

I agree absolutely with the sentiments expressed in your post Tiggers. Whatever you think of the Conservative bunch however, we do at least know exactly what we have had to put up with from the present bunch of shady cronies.

If they are voted in again they will feel that they are unstoppable regardless of what they do to throw this country to the Eu "dogs" in order to further their own positions of power and money at our expense.

I think that it is vital to let these politicians know that if they overstep the mark then they will have to bow to the power of the vote. That is our only real protection now. The only way to underline that is to vote them out, and the replacement government would have to bear that in mind too.

I have also said often enough, our vote is our only link to real democracy and we should protect it and use it for that very reason.

Les

tiggers

Les,

I know what you're saying about our vote and in essence I agree with you, but voting for another party simply to oust the current incumbents isn't good enough for me. We did this in 1997 and arguably things are not much better (by the way I don't want to turn this into a Labour are worse than Conservative/Conservative are worse than Labour argument thread - my point is neither of them have done much good in recent times).

Maybe the Conservatives will turn over a new leaf and be the party that everyone wants them to be, but on current evidence I think that is extremely unlikely.

To me we need a more fundamental change in our political system. It wouldn't bother me one iota if we never saw either Labour or the Conservatives in power again. What both parties have done to Britain's society (or let happen to Britain's society) over the last 25 years is unforgivable.

The trouble is I can't see any alternative on the horizon unless a lot of us start to think outside of the current political spectrum.

tiggers.

popeye

Yep, right on cue.....

OllyK

Get rid of the political parties, every MP is independent and answerable directly to their constituents.

tiggers

mart360

if voting changed anything, they would make it ileagal!!


seriously for once you speak some sense...

i believe one of the biggest failings of all our party,s is the understanding of democracy...

tb and co envision the dreams and aspirations of the us of a, but cant let go of there socialist ideals...

likewise the torys, cant let go from the feudal baron ideals,

it becomes clear that once they get to the trough, they gorge on there own ego,s and dont give a damm about anyone else.

I like the u.s. system for many things, but i feel very strongly about the monarchy we have,

prehaps it needs some u.s. values and enforced law !! applied to our system,

trouble is we are so far down the slippery slope coming back will be messy and painfull

Mart

tiggers

Just for once?? Thanks!

Your point about the US is interesting. I was in the US on election day and the turnout was incredible - people queuing 3 hours to vote - what a difference to here. Not sure how much better their system is though - would need to spend more time studying it before I could reach a conclusion.

It does make you wonder though.

tiggers.

unclebuck

Clearly what is required in this State is an Anarcho-Syndicalist form of government

What does this mean? Briefly stated, Anarcho-Syndicalism is a working-class political ideology that opposes all forms of exploitation and domination. We think that all people are fundamentally equal, and should have the freedom to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they do not harm the freedom of other people. We oppose capitalism because it is a vicious profit system that is based on the exploitation of the workers and the poor to the benefit of a small class of bosses and top government figures. We do not think that the government (courts, army, bureaucracy) is there to look after everyone, instead its role is to keep the ruling class in power. Racism and other forms of special oppression are primarily the product of capitalism and the State. In South Africa, racism was created to "justify", strengthen and deepen the exploitation of the Black working class in the mines, farms and factories.

This unjust social system, which impoverishes and oppresses the majority of the world's population, must be resisted and defeated. It cannot be reformed away. As long as this system exists, there will be poverty, repression and racism. The only people who can fight and overthrow capitalism, the State and all forms of oppression, are the working and poor people. Only these people- the working class and working peasants-can manage the job because only they have no vested interest in the system, because they have power in their ability to organise (particularly in the workplace), and because they produce all the wealth of the world. Only a productive class can make a free, anti-authoritarian society because only such a class is not based on exploitation.

In place of capitalism we want a free socialistic economic system in which the workers and peasants directly control the land and factories, and use these resources to produce for the benefit of all. In place of the State, we want to manage our own affairs through grassroots workplace and community councils, united at the local, regional, national and international levels. We call this system "anarchism" or "stateless socialism" or "libertarian socialism".

We do not think that the State can be made to help ordinary people. The only language the bosses understand is the language of mass struggle from below. This is the only way to win any gains in the here and now, and definitely the only way to smash the system in the long run. Relying on the State to make the revolution is a recipe for disaster, in every country where a "revolutionary government" got into power the result was a social system at least as oppressive as the one that got overthrown. Russia was not socialist, it was a one-party State in which a Communist Party-bureaucratic elite ran a "State-capitalist" system.

Instead of using the State, we believe that the struggle and the revolution must come about through mass democratic movements of the workers and the poor. In particular, we emphasise the revolutionary potential of trade unions. The trade unions can organise the workers to fight the bosses in the here and now, we all know that. The unions can also provide the vehicle for the workers to take-over, and directly manage, the factories, mines, farms and offices. The role of an organisation such as the Workers Solidarity Federation is not to make the revolution "for" the masses. It is to help to organise and educate the masses to march to freedom in their own name. We are opposed to all forms of oppression and support all everyday struggles to improve the conditions under which we live. We promote the self-activity and revolutionary awareness of the masses.

Yea, right on!!

tiggers

Hey ub,

I didn't know you were a member of the South African Workers Solidarity Federation

tiggers.

Petem95

Which will be worth a little over £3 Million by Christmas due to the falling market - he bought almost as the market peaked!!

As for the politics I think the people of the country should have far more say in matters - we shouldnt let our MP's have our say with their vested interests. There should be national votes on stuff.

warrenm2

thats called a "Referendum"...

Chip

That's right. Why not take a random say, 100,000 people from all areas of UK and seek their vote on certain issues rather than let a group of 650 out of touch MPs decide on things.

Dont think that would work for things like taxation etc but could save a lot of commons time with issues like fox hunting which since Labour came to power has had more time allocated to it than both health and education which is in my mind a disgtace.

Chip

Brendan Hughes

That's a sweeping statement. Do you mean parliamentary time, or press attention?

Jye

DRAFT LAW TO INTRODUCE CITIZENS' INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM INTO THE
BASIC (CONSTITUTIONAL) LAW OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY

In 1998 the social democratic and green/alliance 90 political parties
agreed in their "red-green" coalition negotiations to include a
statement of intention to introduce a law allowing citizen-lawmaking at
the "country" level. (This is already possible in most Lands, and in
many towns and districts). A bill was introduced rather late in the
parliamentary session. There was a vote in the Bundestag which showed a
majority in favour but the bill was not passed because a constitutional
majority was not achieved. Too many opposition party MPs were against.

Again in 2002 the red-green government in its second consecutive term
has a similar statement in the coalition agreement. Presumably the bill
or a similar one will be presented again. There is a chance that enough
opposition MPs will support so that the bill can become law.

There follows a translation showing the proposed reform, which would
allow the practice of some elements of direct democracy.

Accuracy of this translation is NOT guaranteed.

--------------------------------------------

Hmmm, I wonder?

Brendan Hughes

Germany's a Federal nation though. The Laender already have a lot of power, unlike say the English counties.

Jye

Yes, but surely we could have some of these additions to direct democracy, such as citizens initiatives and citizen-triggered referendums, i.e. additons to representative government.

mart360

would it be the fact that they swore alegiance to the flag, and uphold the values they believe in..

unlike our half baked attempt, that creates mini subgroups and policies,

that creates conflict and confusion

M

Chip

parliamentary


Chip

MarfGTti

Do they? Perhaps as a five year old child in school or as an immigrant applying for citizenship

Most Americans who publicly uphold the consitution are considered strange in the US.

In fact in a recently leaked US government memo regarding how to identify possible terrorists, "Constitutionalists"(and pretty much anyone with an opinion) are considered suspects.

Strange how a government can trample over a document designed to empower the people against a criminal government, oh wait, its not strange, its Bush and his Neo-Con NWO cronies.

I agree, it is time for a change in the UK, we are heading more and more towards what is effectively a bi-partisan system. Government needs to be 100% more representative of its constituents.

In my mind we should be governed much more at a local/county level, where effective legislation can be polled and created according to local peoples needs.