Andy Hobson

Hi,

I just got a magistrate court summons for an incident on the M25 in June. Basically the nearside lane was closed somewhere up ahead and the gantries were indicating to move over into the middle lane. All 4 lanes of traffic were at a crawl and I guess I wasn't in a great hurry to pull over. Anyway the cops were camped in a layby taking reg numbers (I was by no means the only person still in the nearside lane at this point.

I received an NIP within the 2 week limit and now I have a summons. They are claiming the gantry showed a red cross and my still being there contravenes Sec 36(1) of the RTA (failure to comply with a signal). I'm considering pleading guity as they seem to have all evidence covered.

Has anyone else been had up for anything similar ? How do I find out the maximum points and fine they could impose ? I don't really want to go to court personally as I'm a contractor and it'll cost me a day's rate. Is there any point getting a solicitor if I'm planning to plead guilty ?

Thanks,

Andy.

stevem2k

a mate got done for similar. I recall it was 3pts and 60 quid.

Steve

Andy Hobson

Thanks Steve,

That sounds promising - do you know if he appeared at court in person ?

WRX Wannabe

Can you not plead guilty via post?

Chris L

Andy

What actual evidence have they sent you to prove that you were where they say you were?

Chris

Andy Hobson

Yes I can and that's what I plan to do. I just want to know the worst case scenario of what the magistrate could impose in my absence

Andy Hobson

That's a good point. They have not provided any evidence that they or I was where they said we were. That's quite important as the signs started out as an arrow and then went to a cross. They claim they were placed after the cross but if they were further forward than they say then I may not have reached the cross (I certainly don't recall passing under a big red cross !). I wonder how they could *prove* their exact location in court ?

Chris L

It depends whether you want to be bolshy and fight this. You could easily goto court and demand to see the evidence against you. As soon as you do this, the case would be adjourned and primary disclosure would kick in meaning that the police should send you the evidence they have so that you can defend yourself.

From what you are saying, it appears that your position was noted visually by the policeman. It would be interesting to know whether they have video evidence etc.

In effect what they've sent you is a demand for £60 with no evidence. They know that most people will probably plead guilty by post. You'll be fined £60 and 3 points and that's the end of it. They use the threat of prosecution and additional fines & penalties to frighten you. It is in effect demanding money with menaces. Section 21 of the Theft Act covers this quite nicely (do a Google search on it )

I'm fighting a ticket from mobile unit on exactly these grounds. So far it is has taken 9 months and a court appearance and a formal complaint to the Met Police. The amount of time, effort and money it must be costing is outrageous. Hardly an effective use of police resources to pursue someone for a £60 fine?

Chris

IWatkins

And all you should say is that the traffic was very busy and no one seemed to want to let you in. You were not going to force the issue by pushing in especially as people have been murdered for less in those parts, and it was safer to keep matching the traffic speed than to just stop and hope for a gap that you would then need to sprint for and maybe miss and cause more problems. (it is always safer to match speeds etc.)

You could add that while looking for a gap you may or may not have passed under a red cross, but as far as you were concerned you were getting a bit nervous of never getting into the 2nd lane. Even saying that, you could still not see the incident blocking lane 1 so in your opinion it was still safer to progress and match traffic speeds in the hope of being let in then it was to force the issue or worse to just stop in lane 1.

But before all that, before you get anywhere near going to court I still believe it to be true that you can have access to all the evidence that is going to be used against you in court. (or am I in a dream world ?)

Anyway, if there was an incident ahead, why weren't the coppers up there helping rather than trying to nick people for a petty incident ?

Cheers

Ian

Andy Hobson

Thanks guys, that's great advice. I'm going to speak to a local solicitor that deals with these things and decide which way to go. Scoobynet's blocked at work (boo!) but I'll post an update soon.

Chris L

Andy - PM me if you need some advice and good contacts. Your best defense is go with the police knowingly pursuing an unlawful policy.

Chris

hedgehog

I would think it likely that, in this case, the police officers would be considered expert witnesses by the court and so their "evidence" would be assumed to be correct unless you could prove otherwise.

They would state that they had positioned themselves 100 (say) yards beyond the red X sign and took the registrations of all vehicles that passed them while still in the inside lane. The court would have no option but to believe this evidence unless you could absolutely prove that it wasn't true and I am not clear on how you could do that unless you could show that they were situated somewhere other than where they claim.

To be honest the chances of a magistrates court deciding in your favour in such a case without you absolutely watertight evidence that the police were lying must be close to zero, though you are doing the correct thing by consulting with a solicitor on the matter.

One possible escape route for you might be to challenge the actual legality of the NIP. An expert on European law is now of the view that the NIP is illegal under EU law and there is to be a test case on 9th August to put this before a British Court. As pointed out the NIP infringes your right to silence and to not incriminate yourself and it amounts to little more than a direct threat. Mika at www.pepipoo.com has been working on the challenge to the NIP and someone on pepipoo might be able to assist you in constructing a letter to the Chief Constable pointing out that the NIP in your case was illegal under EU law and therefore negates his case. Clearly if you are going to be having a solicitor assist with your case then any communication should go through the solicitor but someone who is across motoring matters should know about this situation and should be able to advise.

I think the illegal NIP line is probably your best chance as I really can't see you getting sufficient evidence to disprove the statement made by the police officers, at least not in a magistrates court. I also think it unlikely that you would want to appeal to a higher court and, again, you would have to be in possession of some very strong evidence in your favour to go to that length.

Scoobydick

There is some crap being spouted here. Yes you are innocent until proven guilty etc and the police do overly target the innocent motorist but if they've seen you doing the thing and took down your plate that is all that is needed. If the coppers arrested some scum nicking your car off your drive and they were the only people that saw it, would you want the toe rag to get off because they didn't take photos and therefore what evidience is there that he was technically ever on your drive etc etc

Anyway rant over, to the original poster who just wanted the advise...you can see all the possible offences with their codes here and what the max penalty is (i'm getting to familiar with this site ) http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/endor...way%20Offences So it is 3 points for you. The £60 previously mentioned is for a fixed penalty ie is the police pull you over and give you a ticket. If it goes to court it will be up to the magistrate what to fine you. Court costs will be £35 or so and your fine will be on topof this so a bit more than £60 I'd expect. All things considered not a bad offence though. Only downside I've found is that a few insurers such as More Than will not insure you for house or holiday or anything if you have ever been convixted and fined for ANY offence in a court room. still go to some one decent like L&V and it is as though nothing happened.

Chris L

Very little crap being spouted as far as I can see. If people were a bit more willing to stand up for themselves and actually look at what they are entitled to do and see, the police, courts and governement would be forced to rethink their entire policy on road policing (for the better in my opinion).

You are perfectly entitled to challenge the police and ask them to provide evidence of the offence. The police knowlingly persue a policy of not providing evidence unless the case goes to court.

While people continue to accept the current situation, nothing will change.

Chris

Suresh

Just a question, if the police were postioned beyond the sign, how could they possibly know what it was displaying at the time *you* drove past it and therefore at the time of the supposed offence?

Suresh

RichWalk

Andy, most important thing to do first is contact the issuing body and find out if you have to go to court, I got duff info off the coppers who arrested me and ended up with a warrant for my arrest being issued- not for the offence, but for failing to turn up to court- I had pleaded guilty by post as instructed by the police.

speedking

Saw an interesting question the other day:

If all three lanes have a red cross on the gantry sign above what should you do?

a) move to the nearside and continue with caution
b) stop immediately no matter which lane you are in
c) proceed with caution and exit at the next junction
d) carry on as normal, it's obviously a fault

Answer: [upside down]b[/upside down]

Not something that I would fancy doing with the standard of driving / sign recognition shown on the roads these days, but that's the law. http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs01.shtml "Do not proceed further in this lane." Sorry but the offence is the same as jumping a red light

Goochie

Exactly! But I guess the motorway control people could have told them ?

Andy Hobson

Thanks for all the replies and helpful advice. I do not have to appear in court and indeed the wording of the paperwork suggests you will minimise your costs by pleading guity by post.

I called up a solicitor today who deals with these offenses and he confirmed it will be 3 points + "small" fine. He also suggested that it is just not worth trying to build a case for the sake of 3 points unless your license is already loaded (mine isn't !)

The police statement claims they were checking with the motorway control every 10 mins re the sign status and they have a statement from the control guy saying when he switched the signs off. My only doubt is whether they were where they say they were but it's just not worth the grief to try to contest it. I've managed to drive "enthusiastically" for 15 years and incur no points so I suppose in balance it's not a bad result !

Thanks again,

Andy.

DocJock

Please don't take this the wrong way.

Why do you "doubt (is) whether they were where they say they were" ?
To use one of your own suggested mitigations, could you not have missed seeing them as you were looking for a gap in lane 2 to filter into ?

Suresh

With a Jackanory-story of that magnitude from the boys in blue you are very right not to take them on in court.

Suresh

Andy Hobson

I definitely saw them parked up on the hard shoulder but my question is whether they were before or after the red X. Something in their statement I really doubt is that they claim they walked up the hard shoulder to the next gantry to visually check the sign. By their admission this was nearly 1km and it was a very hot afternoon and they were fully kitted out in reflective outfits, not to mention the risk of walking along the hard shoulder.

Anyway, having said all that I'm not intending to contest it as I cannot be sure and it would cost me a lot in lost earnings to appear in court myself.

Manda_po

I have not read the whole thread but to find out the penalty, I'm sure a law library(which I am sure will be available on-line) would be able to help. And if it seems OK, you will get credit for your guilty plea (by post) anyway. HTH.

Leslie

It all seems a bit hard to me to book you for that. Ian has given good advice, I wonder why the coppers were not directing traffic into the middle lane rather than booking drivers? That automatic signal system depends on the willingness of other drivers to let you in.

Les

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

This is exactly what ChrisL was talking about, and the police are hoping for.

They don't want you to fight it as it is to much trouble for little gain, if you plead guilty they get your 60 quid and no paperwork.

If you fight it and lose they do paperwork and you go to court and lose you get to pay court costs aswell as your fine and points, and those court costs are calculated on the amount of work the authorities had to put in and also whether the judge got his leg over the night before.

The police have no evidence unless they have a rear facing camera in their car catching you going under the sign. They are working on scare tactics as has been pointed out already in this thread, and the fact that you are probably to scared to argue with them.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but personaly I think you are on a hiding to nothing if you persue it in court, but hope you do decide to and give them a bloody nose for their trouble.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

havent read all above sorry.
but,

insist on full disclosure of all evidence no later than seven days before any trial or ptr

its the law (!) and its often the one thing they dont want to show you

the ins and outs of your totally hideous crime I am sure will be discussed throughout