Philip Attaway

I'm looking into getting a new MTB after giving up about 10 years ago.

Trouble is everything has moved on massively and I am now quite confused!

I used to run a Specialised Stumpjumper Comp with nearly all the components swapped for trick bits but no suspension. Rockshox were a very new thing then so I have never actually tried it on the rough stuff.

I don't mind spending a few quid on a bike because I always upgrade them so would prefer something that already comes with good stuff, but I don't know whether to go full suspension or stick with a hard tail and just front shox.

I am thinking of either the Specialised Epic Marathon (full suspension) or the Specialised S-Works M5 Hardtail Disc. (Would want a discount as this is quite pricy!)

I was quite happy with my old bike (riding position etc) so that is why I have been looking at Specialised but are there better bikes out there for the money?

My main riding will be fast trails and downhill. I am 6'2 and 14 stone and after a light bike that I can chuck around without breaking

Finally, anyone know any good clubs around North London? I will probably join Epping Forest MTB club. Saw several scoobs around there today. Anyone here?

Cheers

Phil

yoza

There are loads of MTBers on here, but they must all be out getting muddy.

Im sure you will get some replies, when they get home.

I ride a Scott Octaine, its never seen a mountain, but it knows its own way to the Sunday papers shop.......

Had it for ages, and its still sub 100miles.......

Philip Attaway

ta

btt

M444GY

iTrader: (72)

just bought a gary fisher, full suspension , hydrolic brakes , the works. cost £1600 quid but its the most comfortable bike ive ever ridden. had many different bikes trek, scott, gt ect . try the gary fisher range

PG

try here for loads of helpful stuff

Martin J Stirling

Hi Phil,

You've come to the right place. I'm an avid MTBer, well, until I broke a rib 2 weeks ago on a tricky descent!

Ok, bike advice. As you say there are two types of bikes, full suspension or hardtails. Both types of bikes have their inherent pros and cons, but ultimately you know what type of riding you do and what you are looking for in a bike. I'll try and summarise in the main points below..

Hardtail
----------
+ much lighter than FS
+ more responsive and handle better due to the stiff frame
+ responsiveness gives a better 'feel' for the terrain and what your bike is doing

- less forgiving, comfort wise on rough terrain
- can be slower and harder to control on rocky terrain compared with FS

Full Suspension
------------------
+ more control and faster on the real rough, rocky stuff
+ more comfortable ride as more bumps are absorbed

- much heavier than eq. priced hardtail
- less in touch with what's going on beneath you
- rear suspension is very energy sapping on hills clmbs, and are prone to cause the dreaded bobbing and bouncing
- more moving parts mean more to maintain and more to go wrong


As u can probably guess, I'm a hardtail fan. I guess it's more of the purists choice, but it's kinda like the compromise between a firm ride, but better grip and handling on a car, or a comfy plush ride, but a feel of isolation from the whole driving experience. Say Scoob versus a Passat.

Generally, you rarely see a pro MTBer on a FS bike due to wight and speed reasons - HT's are faster. If u want a bike to just bomb down hills on, but then walk back up, then FS could be for you. Many ppl just seek the thrills of downhilling, and aren't bothered about weight. But if you're gonna use the bike for more varied cross country riding, and are gonna be going up hill as much as down, then I'd def. say HT is your best bet. The bike will be lighter, more rewarding to ride and be less complicated to look after.

As for choice of bike. Well, there's a lot of good stuff out there, and it really depends on how much you wanna spend. If you're looking to upgrade in the future, then the most important investemnt is to ge a good frame - the heart and sole of the bike. Many ppl are tricked into buying a bike because it might have some fancy XTR bits on, and then overlook the frame itself.

Most bike frames are mass produced cheap aluminium sourced from places like Taiwan. These are often poorly built from cheap tubing with bad quality welds and construction. It really helps to go for a higher priced model, from a well known manufacturer to ensure u dont get a lemon.

The Specialized stuff is still top notch, and their Metal Matrix, Stumpjumper M2 frame is one of the best out there. This is def. a good bet. If you have more to spend, then it is always worth getting a custom bike from one of the well known UK bike manufacturers in the Uk such as Roberts. They can build you a made to measure bike, with the frame materials; steel, alloy or titanium of your choice. I think this would be my money no object route. Otherwise, Trek is another good option, and Klein, if you have the money, make probably the nicest bikes I have seen.

Anyway, I'm boring u I'm sure so I'll stop. But if u need more info, just shout mate.

Have fun!

Mart.

MooseRacer

I'd agree that the m2 is a class h/t.
Also Martin is right imo, unless you're looking to ride really rough terrain then stick with a good quality hardtail. But then again loads of people will tell you that on long dayrides a full susser is the quicker bike....

Alternatively do what I, and loads of other mtb'ers, do and have a different bike for every conceivable situation - currently a rather low 5 for me - must buy some more

Incidentally I've just started riding again after 9months off due to breaking my hip practising for a downhill race last year It's amazing what 9months of eating rubbish and smoking loads does for your fitness levels

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

If you can afford a Titanium frame, go for it:


I made the change about 5 years ago when my alloy framed bike was nicked from a French campsite:

Have a look at the Merlin website: they do a "Rock Lobster" Titanium frame as frame only, or as a build with your choice of components.

That frame is seriously cheap for Ti, and a lovely piece of kit. If you want something virtually unbreakable, lighter than alloy and springier than steel...........................:

Alcazar

the moose

Phil

Used to be that hardtails were much lighter than full suspension machines, and was one of those who thought that the inherent disadvantage of additional weight just wasn't worth it.

I've changed my tune rather - I've got an S-Works Enduro which weighs in at 24lbs, which admittedly is still more than my Klein, which is on the nose of 21lbs. But the rear doesn't bob on the climbs (the Brain shock sorts this out) and I now have 130mm of suspension travel at each end rather than 80mm just at the front.

That said, the Klein is still an awesome bike, and much more responsive than the Enduro. But I do around 100 miles a week on the Enduro, and have probably done no more than 80 on the Klein ... since January. Guess I've voted with my **** on that one.

Top tip: borrow a couple of bikes for a weekend and see what you like best. Most decent bike shops have a test fleet.

More information that you can possibly imagine on

http://www.singletrackworld.com/

Edit - if you're after a hardtail, my recommendation would be the On-One Ti Inbred, which is a lovely bit of kit. About £900 including 100mm Fox forks, so probably £2k by the time you've built it up, but well worth it.

MooseRacer

That's going some to get an s-works enduro down to 24lb, what spec have you built it too, and is that 24lbs with tyres,pedals etc?

the moose

Yep, that's with everything!

Frame - S-Works 04 Enduro - Medium.
Fork - Manitou Minute 3
Chainset - M960 XTR Hollowtech with integrated BB
F/Mech - XTR
R/Mech - XTR Short cage
Shifters - XTR Rapidfire - With Nokon cables
Cassette - XT 11-32
Chain - XTR
Wheels - Mavic Crossmax XL
Tyres - WTB Veceloraptor's 2.1 F&R with 'No Tubes' valves and solution
F/Brake - Hope Mono M4 200mm - With Goodridge Braided Hose (carbon)
R/Brake - Hope Mono M4 180mm - With Goodridge Braided Hose (carbon)
Headset - Chris King
Bars - Easton Monkeylite DH Carbon risers (cut to 26" width)
Grips - ODI Ruffian Lockon's
Stem - Thomson 90mm / 5'
Seatpost - Thomson 367mm straight post (un cut)
Saddle - Selle Italia SLR 135gram
Pedals - Eggbeater 'S' (though I'm using Mallet M's at the moment)

http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/phot...w&image=149014



Handles superbly, and proves you can have light weight and strength at the same time. Can't do it at a budget price though!

PG

that is NICE mate

Philip Attaway

Thanks guys.

Some very useful information there

What kind of cost would it be to custom build a decent bike then excluding the frame?
I have seen some good prices for 2003 frames but not sure how much to build up the equivalent spec of, say the S-works disc.

Would you buy last years model..or wait until the 2005 models?

When will 2004 prices drop?

Cheers

Phil

the moose

There are all sorts of deals you could get now, but it really all depends on what you'd be prepared to spend.

Clearly, sticking XTR on anything is gong to cost, and as you've been away for a while it would be stupid to go in at the top level and not use it .... as well as being daft speccing a bike with Deore or the like then upgrading after a couple of months.

For what it's worth, I'd buy secondhand or ex-demo - the 2005 bikes will be starting to appear in around 8 weeks, so there'll be some deals on complete 2004 machines.

If you're looking for a custom build though, your best bet is to head to a specialist and get them to quote on what you want. You'll typically get a 10-15% discount for buying all the kit in one shop, and they'll build it for free.

As a rough rule of thumb, and excluding the frame, costs might be in the region of:

wheels/hubs £250
brake discs/calipers £200
saddle £50
seatpost £25
crank/chain/bb £200
bars £35
forks £250
cables/grips etc £50

Martin J Stirling

Rock Lobster is the way to go I think, now I've thought about it. Their Titanium frames are lovely, and well priced. I think these are especially nice because they are rare, and individual. You can get them to build up the bike exactly how YOU want it, not the manufacturer trying to cut costs here and there.

See for yourself, wicked bikes mate..

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/acatal...ter_bikes.html

Let us know how u get on.

Mart.

PS - I have a Titanium frame and it's lovely.

willy

Get a GT Zaskar, got mine 4 years ago and it still rides fanatastic.

*****

Mark Miwurdz

Hi Phil

You must try before you buy. The hardtail vs. softail is such a personal, subjective matter. I prefer hardtails.

I too had a Stumpjumper and a Rockhopper before that. I'm now running an M5 Works hardtail which I love. It was virtually unused, just over a year old and with loads of upgrades was a bargain at £890 on eBay. I'd go to a couple of shops for a demo to decide what you want. Then scour the classified ads and eBay and bag yourself a bargain. Loads of people try biking and don't like it. Providing the purchaser can prove the bike was not obtained by illegal means and you don't mind last year's colours, you can get a lot for your money.

Best of luck!

Cheers
Kav

PS - Rode the South Downs way in one go on Saturday (100 odd miles) and my @rse now feels like I've been sitting on the Japanese flag.

Philip Attaway

mmm. that Team Ti Rock lobster looks nice.

Doesn't have XTR though I suppose I can get them to upgrade?

What is the advantage of titanium? Is it just weight or strength as well, as well as sounding flash

Steel frames flex and bend and aluminium ones snap what does Ti do?

Phil

Philip Attaway

Hi Mark

I am looking at a bike on e-bay at the mo. Have mailed as it doesn't say the frame size.

I know I like biking as when I did ride I was very keen and used to race a bit too. The North downs was my main riding place as I was a member of Larkfield cyclepathix MTB club.

I only gave up because of girlfriends and pouring money into cars. Hard to get up early on a Sunday if you know what I mean when there was other ways to get exercise

Now I am married I'll do anything to get out the house (only joking dear!)

Phil

Martin J Stirling

Hi Phil,

Glad you like the Rock Lobster, it's a real beut. They'll upgrade it to whatever spec u want. The spec options on the site are more for guidance.

As for different frame materials, here's a basic rundown:

Ally:
Light, strong and very stiff. Won't rust! Very responsive, but can be punishing on long or rough rides. Aluminium has a limited life due to metal fatige. Ally frames can get tired after 6-8 years and need replacing. The frame WILL wear out.

Steel:
Heaviset of the lot, altthough decent 853 tubed bikes with double or triple butting, are still regarded by some as the purists choice. Is normally more forgiving than aluminium. Many say that good frames have a bit of natural give. Will rust eventually. Thin tubes not as sexy as phat ally ones.

Ti:
Strongest of all. Very light. Nicest to ride as very stiff laterally, but gives the bike a real 'feel' or spring in it's tail. You literally power out of bumps. More forgiving on rough stuff, without compromising lateral stiffness. Will last forever. Will not rust. Unpainted, polished finish looks cool!

Carbon:
Lightest of all. Very stiff. Can be quite harsh. Said to have a rather dead, lifeless feel to it. Prone to damage in crashes. Very expensive. More gimicky than really amazing. Ti is better. Unlikely to last too long. I had some lovely carbon fibre wheels (Spinergy) a few years ago. Were great, light and stiff, but the stick they got gradually perished them, and they cracked eventually.

Go for Ti if you can afford it, and dont discount a nice 853 steel frame. U won't be dissapointed with either.

Mart.

Philip Attaway

I will try and price up a custom build if I get the chance tonight.

I will probably miss lots of bits.

Is there a list anywhere of EVERYthing I would need to budget for?

Phil

Martin J Stirling

Here's the full component list:

- Frame (Most important)
- Wheelset - 2nd most important. Crossmax are the ultimate. If not then a decent set of Mavic rims, handbuilt with XT or XTR hubs is a good 2nd. U really do notice light wheels when riding.
- Groupset (includes Gearset, cables, cranks, brakes, Bottom Backet, freewheel and maybe hubs) Go for LX minimum, but better, XT or XTR
- Forks - Suspension is a must. Rock shox SID are still the lightest and work very well. Heavier riders report a little lateral flex though. I haven't noticed, and I weigh 14 stone. Most forks are pretty decent these days. Marzochi and Manitou work well.
- Aheadset - Chris King makes the best but pricey, but there are others nearly as good
- Stem, seatpost, bar and barends. Light, but don't got too light. I have had seatposts snap on me b4.
- Saddle, this is personal choice, no good or bad really. I have always loved the Selle Royal Flight Titanium.
- Pedals. Clipless is the way to go. Toeclips are clumsy and add extra weight. XTR pedals are good, Egg beaters are cool too - very light and easy to clip in/out, esp. in mud.
- Rubber bar grips - Again personal choice.

In general it's better to go for an excellent frame and wheels, spend the most that u can on these, as the rest u can upgrade later. I've gone through many groupsets and forks, but the frame is still here.!

Mart.

Franx

Don't forget about Carbon Fibre There's still a few carbon bikes around - Scott is supposed to be bringing out a new carbon hardtail range next year in fact.

I have a Scott Endorphin pro racing - the carbon/thermoplastic one. I'll try and dig out a pic.

I looked into custom builds a while ago though, and I was finding that that do cost a huge amount more than the factory-builds, just because of what you'd put onto the frame. Problem is, if you spec the bike yourself, there'll be no compromise at all, in any of the components - no 'average' bits, that is, like you'd get on any other bike.

Tbh, I'd seriously think about the Epic, or a nice hardtail - but give it a good try first, and look around on the web etc. MBUK forum's not bad for that kind of thing.

I've never had/riden a full suspension (except the raleigh activator 2 which doesn't count) so I couldn't recommend one, but I think there's a lot to be said for a good hardtail. Meant to make you work more, and think about where you're riding....so they say

Lists of everything you need to budget for? Why not go to the shop who you'd want to build it, and get them to price one up for you? Probably the best idea.

One thing - don't just get the most expensive bits, coz they're not always the best. Look in MBUK etc for reviews. Those Crossmax wheels are about twice the price of 'normal' ones. Very nice though, and probably worth it, for the weight saving. The Crosslands (below the C'max), aren't meant to be half as good though, so might be better off with custom built wheels as well

C.

Philip Attaway

Thanks Martin :thumbsup:

A Rock lobster Titanium frame is £599 sounds cheap for Ti

I will have to test ride one but roughly what frame size do you think I would be? I am 6'2"

Getting excited now! I will probably faint when I see how much it's going to cost!

One more question. I have seen the egg beater pedals. Do the cleats (bit in the shoe) come with them as I will have to buy shoes as well? I am used to toeclips so I will probably stack it at the traffic lights!

Phil

Mark Miwurdz

Hi Phil

Eggbeaters come with cleats and start around the £50 mark.

Cheers
Kav

the moose

If you've ever used SPDs then Eggs are easy. I've got some SPDs you can have for free if you like. Should have some cleats knocking around as well, but beware, you WILL fall off at times, though if you have a big wipeout you always come unclipped.

Other thing is that if you want to try hardtail versus suspension, you're welcome to try mine out, assuming you're reasonbly close to Herts- PM me for details if you're interested.

Martin J Stirling

Phil, you'll prob be a large, although I'm 6'1 and ride an medium sized frame. Height can be adjusted pretty well with a long seat post and rach with a stem. Best to get measured up properly and see what size you're best suited to, Merlin will be able to help best here.

Mart.

Philip Attaway

Moose - Have sent PM

Philip Attaway

Any comments on this custom build I have done on the Merlin site? Too expensive, crap etc!?
I have done it to get a rough price so parts are subject to change.
Also what have I missed?

Phil


ROCK LOBSTER TEAM TITANIUM
- SIZE: 19" * £599.95

2004 ROCKSHOX SID TEAM
- COLOUR: BLACK * £325.00

THOMSON ELITE STEM
RISE - RISE: 5 DEGREE 1
LENGHT - LENGTH: 110MM 1 £64.95

HOPE HEADSET
- COLOUR: * £59.95

EASTON EC90 SL CARBON STRAIGHT BAR £68.95

SHIMANO 959 XTR PEDALS £59.95

THOMPSON ELITE SEATPOST
- SIZE: 26.8mm * £64.95

SELLE ITALIA SLR £62.50

DISK KIT 7 (mono mini)
RIMS - RIMS: XM321 DISC BLACK 1
SYSTEM OPTIONS - SYSTEM OPTIONS: PAIR MONO M4 SYSTEMS £384.95 1
HUB COLOUR - HUB COLOUR: GOLD 1
MOUNT TYPE - MOUNT TYPE: INT. STD. 1
ROTOR SIZE - ROTOR SIZE: 180 FRONT/160 REAR 1 £384.95

PAIR HOPE TITANIUM SKEWERS
- COLOURS: GOLD * £39.95

WTB VELOCIRAPTOR - PAIR £19.95

ODI YETI SPEED
- Colour: Black * £8.95

2004 SHIMANO XTR CHAINSET AND BOTTOM BRACKET £225.00

SHIMANO XTR 9 SPEED CASSETTE
- CHOOSE RATIO: 11-32 RATIO * £84.95

SHIMANO XTR 9 SPEED CHAIN £17.95

SHIMANO XTR 9 SPEED REAR MECH (M960) £65.00

SHIMANO XTR 9 SPEED FRONT MECH
- CHOOSE SIZE AND TOP OR BOTTOM PULL: 28.6 TOP PULL * £49.95

AVID FLAK JACKETS £19.95

SHIMANO XTR 9 SPEED SHIFTERS (PAIR) £84.95


Total £2,307.75

Martin J Stirling

That is basically a no holes barred, top specced Titanium race bike - for that price I'd say it was a STEAL mate, truly. Compare that frame and spec to the alternatives and you'll see what a crackin' deal it is. The similarly specced Specialized S-Works Hardtail Disc, for example is 3300 quid!!

Most of the bike companies cut corners, even on the top end bikes, by fitting cheaper bits here and there and hoping you wont notice. They mix and match Shimano componentry, with cheaper stuff from Avid etc, and just leave the XTR rear mech, for show.

As for your bike spec, the only thing I would say is if you really want a top notch bike, and it looks like u do, then get a set of Mavic Crossmax wheels. They really are the nuts mate. If this means downgrading to XT, instead of XTR then fine. To be honest XT is wicked kit anyway, and ppl only ever choose XTR if they're weight freaks, or if they simply want the best. I've slowly upgraded from XT to XTR as and when things wear out and I can't say I've ever noticed much difference in performance - it's just cool!

Damn, you're making me jealous now, that bike's gonna be amazing!

Mart.