PPPMAT

All you gym pro's out there

I've trained for approx 10 years and have gone through can't be bothered patches and can be bothered patches but I've always gone. I'm now at a stage where I am REALLY bothered and want to put as much effort in for the time I can afford as possible.

My problem is plateau. I reached it ages ago and find it very hard to get over in almost all muscle groups. I train 3 times a week and as a hardgainer I try not to overtrain spending about an hour in the gym.

I don't take any supplements whatsoever but pay attention to what I eat. I suppose I'm no novice and realise there's no magic trick to all this but I'm no expert either.

Its pointless asking the local instructors as they clearly haven't got a clue

any general ideas/tips/routines would be appreciated

Matt

SPEN555

After 10 years of training maybe you have reached your natural genetic potential?

Time for as many drugs/steriods/GH you can afford handle

Damian.

TelBoy

In my opinion and experience, plateaus come with the territory. Your body HAS to go through them occasionally. Best way to break them is;

1. Take a break for a week or two.
2. Do different exercises.
3. Do different reps/sets.
4. Eat more/sleep more/drink less.

Usually does the trick.

SPEN555

damn PC double posted

super_si

What way have you plateaued? Id only be botherd if it was a big muscle group.

yoza

Hit the wall.

Then get a bunk over it.

Hit the wall.

Then get a bunk over it.

Hit the wall.

Then g............

So on and so forth.

Dont pay more than £4.50 per bunk, if you get my drift........

steve_g

steve_g

What's your weight? height? approx bodyfat %??

PPPMAT

Plateaud mainly on chest - cant get past current weight for some time. Lats is same and to a lesser degree biceps.

Legs not too bad - bit more to go there

super_si

What weight and excercise. You rmaking this difficult you know

milo

you haven't listed your current routine and diet and your stats. without that, tailored advice cannot be given

chances are something's wrong with your routine and/or diet, so post them up and i'll tell u.

i'd be willing to bet a decent routine like westside barbell or metal militia will work wonders

milo

i assume on bench press? where are you failing? bottom, middle, top, lockout, speed?

i'd be willing to bet it's your triceps that are holding you back (usually the case on bench) and not actually your chest at all. close-grip bench, dips and 3/4 board press work wonders here.

on westside, we figure out what weakness is causing our lifts not to go up.. and we prioritize our training around that weakness.

PPPMAT

Sorry for late reply guys

Workout is as follows (3 day split)

Day 1 - Chest/Shoulders

Flat d/bell press 4x10 @ 30 kgs x2
Flat d/bell flys 3x10 @ 26 kgs x2
Flat benchpress 3x10 @ 60 kgs
dips 3xfailure

Military press d/bell 4x10 @ 20 kgs x2
side laterals d/bell 3x10 @ 14 kgs x2
bent over laterals 3x10 @10 kgs x2

Day 2 - Back and Bi's

Bent over rows b/bell 4x10 @ 45 kgs
seated close grip 3x10 @ 70 kgs
seated pulldowns 3x10 @ 70 kgs
single arm d/bell rows 2x10 @ 26 kgs (x2)

single arm d/bell curls 4x10 @ 14 kgs (x2)
b/bell curls 3x10 @ 35 kgs
preacher curls @ 35 kgs

tricep pushdowns 3x10 @ 70 kgs
tricep kickbacks d/bell 3x10 @ 10 kgs (x2)

Day 3 - legs

seated leg curl 3x20 @ 63 kgs
sqauts 4x10 @ 85 kgs
seated leg push 3x10 @ 142 kgs
ham curls 3x10 @ 50 kgs

standing calf raises 3x10 @ 124 kgs
seated calf raises 3x10 @ 124 kgs

I weigh 81 kgs (12st 10ish) and am 5'11''
Don't take any supplements other than protein shake after training.

Thanks in anticipation guys

Tiggs

Bent over rows b/bell 4x10 @ 45 kgs
seated close grip 3x10 @ 70 kgs
seated pulldowns 3x10 @ 70 kgs
single arm d/bell rows 2x10 @ 26 kgs (x2)

single arm d/bell curls 4x10 @ 14 kgs (x2)
b/bell curls 3x10 @ 35 kgs
preacher curls @ 35 kgs


thats a LOT of bicep work!

i used to do seated rows and chins and got a huge back and huge arms.

kammy

For back, chin-ups work a treat, but are very hard. Alot of people can only do three ish so simply use Lat pull down. Also would not recommend back and biceps, they are too close in trainning and tend to burn out.

PS: Wide chins followed by close grips are good, followed by one arm rows. Has worked for alot of guys i have helped over the years. Learnt it from my bro from his years of knowledge aswell
kammy

PPPMAT

I used to work shoulders and bi's on the same day but someone told me it was best to work back and bi's so you are working similar muscle groups on the same day. I've only actually changed this in the last 2 months.

Is this contributing to the problem ?

milo

drop the flyes.. they're a waste of time. don't bother with BOTH flat db press AND flat bench (they're the same move)... so incline one of them (you're missing inclines and need them in there). how many dips are you getting? if its more than about 8, add some weight.

also up the weights and drop the reps on the exercises you're doing 10 reps at. 10 reps does NOT build muscle well. try 8 reps at this stage, then drop to 6 when you stall on 8.

solid, but too much volume imo. as you're natural, 23 sets total (plus warm-ups i hope!) is probably stalling you as you're not able to generate the same intensity that you would with fewer sets. of course everyone is different and many gain off 30 sets... but as you're hitting plateaus its probably an indication that you're overtraining here.


drop pulldowns and replace them with chins. they're a FAR superior exercise. also drop dbell rows - they're too similar to bb rows (and less effective). again, up the weights, up the intensity and drop the reps.

way, way, way too much bicep work. they should be fried after back anyway... so one triple dropset of bb curls will suffice.

not nearly enough tricep work.. and kickbacks are a waste of time (they dont work all 3 heads of the tricep). put in close-grip bench press, weighted dips and jm press. pushdowns are ok, but inferior to the 3 exercises i just mentioned. board presses are of course the best


squat first! you're wasting yourself by doing leg curls first. you should be doing back squats, front squats, deadlifts, goodmornings, glute ham raises, reverse hypers. none of this curl stuff.


solid.. you need both standing and seated for sure. some say you don't.. but you do. dropsets for calves are pretty effective.

tbh, your routine could do with a complete makeover (i have a feeling u could make huge gains), but id say your main problems are:
* too many reps (10 reps doesn't build muscle like 1-5 heavy reps does)
* not enough intensity (i.e. too many sets)
* no deadlifts (i.e not enough compound moves as a ratio of your total movements).

after that long of training (assuming it was pretty consistent), you should be benching double bodyweight raw (unless you're purely bodybuilding and not interested in strength.. which is fine of course), and should be near 3x bodyweight on squats and deadlifts. as you're not there yet, and if you're interested in strength gains.. you probably have the potential to gain a **** load of strength in a short amount of time by changing your program. i would strongly suggest reading up on periodization, in particular read louie simmons' work.

good luck

super_si

i agree with Milo for 10 years id be gutted with those weights. I found squatting
10,6,4,4,6,15 and deadlifting 10,6,4,4,6,10 in my first year accelerate both the lifts.
But as state depends if your a body builder or strength fanatic

Si

PPPMAT

Thanks a lot guys - really appreciate your advice. I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could do a lot better. When I first started i made great gains in strength and size and have just let it drift really at weights I suppose I am comfortable with.

Milo - I will take on board what you have said and make the changes needed - lets see what happens.

Thanks again

Matt

milo

no problems bro.. let us know how it goes.. keep us informed

CraigH

Not being overly knowledgable, but wtf are board presses and jm press pushdowns for triceps?

And why do some muscle groups develop faster than others? In my case chest and back get (reasonable) strength quickly, shoulders seem to take an age

Tends to be when I relapse into the beer and curry exercise plan.

If you don't have time (or can't be bothered) how much should you actually try and fit in to a regime to get a reasonable shape?

day 1 I do chest/back -
chest:
3 x 10 @35kg fly on that funny cable machine thing :s
4 x 10 @ 70kg b press. Any more and I look like Dolly Parton.

back:
3 x 10 @ 60kg on close grip row
3 x 10 @ 80kg on lat pull down wide grip
3 x 10 @ 50kg on lat pull down close grip
3 x 10 wide chinups

day 2 shoulders

4 x 10 @ 10kg lat side raises
4 x 10 @ 16kg db shoulder press
4 x 10 @ 30kg bb shoulder press
4 x 10 @ 20kgx2 reverse fly

on both I do some leg and stomach work if I can. (be arsed)

To me it seems reasonably balanced but would certainly like better results with shoulders. Am handicapped slightly 'cos I fooked my right shoulder a couple of years ago and don't wanna do it again.

Comments? (apart from lol, pmsl etc )

And at what age does all this stop working. I'm sure now (35) it takes a hell of a lot longer to see results than it did 10 years ago - back in those days......

super_si

Board press is a 6*3 boards on the chest that help with lock outs. its like doing a partial deadlift. your only moving a certain rom(range of movement)

Si

milo

best to google for some videos, but i'll try to describe: board presses are bench press with boards on your chest. in other words, they work the top range of the movement. jm presses are a little like a combination between skullcrushers and bench press (i.e. the movement is basically a partial skullcrusher) with a barbell.


* genetics
* size of the muscles
* training routine


15 minutes a week if you believe mike mentzer (he's sort of right). 3 sessions of about 40 mins each week (assuming ok routine) is a rule of thumb realistically.. but "reasonable" is so subjective. furthermore it depends on how good your sessions are... 7 days a week of 3 hours of pissing about with bicep curls is NOT going to be as effective as squatting and deadlifting once a week each for 30 mins for example.

your routine is a typical cookie cutter magazine program invented to keep u small (sorry but have to tell u how it is). your routine should be based around compound moves like deadlifts and squats, and legs should definitely NOT be an afterthought.

40 sets for shoulder is too much, and is why you're being held back there. furthermore, 10 reps is too many.. up the weight and go heavy.

it does depend equally as much on your diet, form and rest tho.


it never stops working until you hit your genetic limit for raw strength - but even then you CAN still increase the weights some 150-200% simply by working on explosive power and speed. you will have a genetic limit for muscle mass of course.

given your test production diminishes with age.. it will be harder for u at 35, especially if you're drug free. thats not to say u still cant get awesome results.. because u can.

CraigH

So what are you saying?

Not interested in getting "big", don't have the genetics (or desire/motivation) to do so anyway.

More interested in strength and being balanced.

Milo, If you've got time, could you post/pm me a program, assuming 3 x workouts of 40-60mins per week. Am drug free and don't want to take any supplements, drink too much and eat okayish, not too much fast food. Will probably do a bit of swimming and a single CV routine in between this as well.

If you could make the program so it gives a body like Adonis within 2 weeks, it'd be a bonus

Cheers in advance

milo

from what you've said so far, i would recommend a push/pull/legs program for you revolving around a 5x5 and progressive resistance. i would say within 12 weeks on this, assuming sound diet, you could happily gain 20-30kg to your core lifts as you've been on a not very effective program so far.

legs (monday):
squats 5x5
goodmornings 2 sets of 8
glute-ham raises 2 sets of 8
weighted ab crunches 2 sets of 8
calf raises 2 sets of 8

push (wednesday):
bench press 5x5
weighted dips 2 sets of 8
incline db press 2 sets of 8
db military press 2 sets of 8
skullcrushers 2 sets of 8

pull (friday):
deadlift 5x5
weighted chins 2 sets of 8
bent-over rows 2 sets of 8
barbell curls 1 dropset of 8, 8.

the idea behind 5x5 would be to be able to do all 5 sets with the same weight and progressively loading each week. so you start with a weight thats easy, and gradually overload.

let's assume u can get 8 reps at 100kg on an exercise.. that's probably the weight you'd start 5x5 with (to stop you plateauing early). so you end up doing: 5 reps of 100kg for 5 sets. the next week (assuming u get all 5x5), you increment by the smallest amount possible and do 5 reps of 102.5kg for 5 sets. rest period between sets is 2-3 mins on 5x5. the ideal is you never work to failure on the 5x5 due to starting with a lighter weight and progressively overloading. at some point you will plateau tho.

the other exercises are sets of 8 reps.. for assistance work. these should be done near failure, with less rest (1-1.5 mins) between sets. progressive overload is important here too.

i'd say you should easily be able to gain for 12 weeks off this with good diet.. and then turn to periodization type programs, such as wsb over 4 days, once you've got more used to working with heavier weights for less reps.

CraigH

OK, cheers for the advice - I'll give that a go and let you know how I get on. It sounds like it's gonna kill me though, so if you don't hear, you'll know why

Cheers

milo

its actually less sets than u were doing before! so u should be able to get a fair bit more intensity.

dont forget to warm-up first (usually 1-2 light sets of 8) before each movement.

good luck