Stueyb

Well guys, we all thought it would happen, a fuel blockade (sp?) and hopefully really hurt the tony b liar government this time but it looks like the people with the power have caved in - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3775727.stm

To my mind they should do it and do it now, because they have the nation behind them. At the moment its a current issue. In a few weeks it will long be forgotten.

I live quite near Shell Stanlow, and it gauls me that the stuff you see going out of their is 75% to the government. I am having to rethink keeping the scoob (so short yet so sweet )

FFS we are litterally taxed to death. Put it this way.

You get paid, if your lucky ~27% of that has gone to the government.

Then you get in your car and go home - 70% tax on your fuel, road tax also.

Get home, open the gas/insurance/ whatever bill and odds on there is at least 5% if not 17.5% tax on those.

Dont forget your council tax either. And the really unlucky amongst you parish tax also.

Pop into some random shop and purchase a few bits and pieces, 17.5% VAT thanks very much.

Watch TV - BBC TV (or tonys personal tv station depending on your point of view) licence.

Then you go down the pub for a few beers, yet more tax.

I dont know about you chaps, but Im seriously thinking of going to somewhere with a less beat em till they drop (tax regieme)

Go out for the weekend and wherever you go, youll end up paying tax. It really is scary if you think how much tax we pay in the UK.

eClaire

FFS! £109.9 is a tad excessive!

Nice to see my home town is amongst the cheapest; might be something to do with the shortest arms and the deepest pockets!

the moose

How much tax is paid in other countries? Find this out, then see what your actual (post-tax) buying power is. Then measure against this what you actually get in terms of services, and think again.

We in Britain are NOT the most highly taxed country in the world, nor do we get a bad deal overall. You want low taxes? Go and live in, say, Rwanda - you'll pay sod-all in tax, but the services aren't exactly what you'd be wanting.

tiggers

A fuel price thread - what a refreshing change

eClaire

Wheres imlach when you need him

Stueyb

erm its not a thread its a rant

SiPie

Claire

Do remember that us mean Scots give more to charity than anyone else within the uk (per head of population) ... so tread carefully my lady

OllyK

Hmmm. The proposed blockade was about the proposed increase in fuel tax. The chancellor has agreed to hold fire for the moment and review it in August. So for now at least they have a slight moral vicotry if nothing else. I suspect the protests will be back on again if come August the chancellor decides to go ahead. The rest of the recent issues are more a supply and demand issue and OPEC have agreed to up production which should stabalise the markets pretty quickly. So all in no, no major disaster.

eClaire

Why do I find that hard to believe?

Graz

Common sense prevails, the only reason for the high prices is market forces, nothing else. These fuel protesters should stop whinging and be thankful for the freedom we have in this country. Yeah fuel is expensive but that's not strictly the goverments fault, the books have to balance at the end of the day. You want good public services etc. the money has to come from somewhere, if not from fuel duty then it would be VAT or income tax increases. If you don't like it then use alternate forms of transportation. It saddens me that we are becoming more and more like the US where everyone thinks they have the right to own and drive a car. It used to be a luxury item many years ago that not everyone could afford.

Anyway, still fed up with these fuel price threads

OllyK

Yes please!!! When can we have them??? At the moment all I see is a worsening service costing more and more.

Where I live council tax has gone up again, crime figures are up - no doubt due to the number of motoring convictions as much as anything and the services are getting worse:
The bin men don't collect our rubbish about 1 week in 5, keep complaining and nothing much happens. OK then send out a special van to come and collect it, but how much extra has that cost?
The extra money is not providing better services it is being sucked up in bureaucracy and inefficiency, it is costing more for worse services.

Ringpeas

What OllyK said

Faire D'Income

Wot ^^^^ said.

Adrian F

Taxed to death and supplied with terriable services, with no choice.

i for one think that i can spend my money better than the government and would like to keep more of what i earn so that i have the choice on what to do with it.

i don't want to supply free housing to people who were not born in this country or have made no significant contribution to it and don't see why i should work 60 hours a week to do so.

And fuel is 73% tax here and 27% in the US i dont see how it is justifiable that the worlds most successfull economy can manage on only 27% tax but Gordon wants to raise tax up from 73%!

It is bad management on Gordons Treasury of existing resources by his own admission to many civil servants.

tiggers

You think we've got problems - in the US this time last year fuel was around $1.20 a gallon now it's nearly double that. In real terms that's a much bigger increase than we're seeing over here.

Interstingly enough no one in the US is threatening to blockade their refinaries etc.

tiggers.

Faire D'Income

Maybe that's because they realise that its largely a problem of their own (the consumers) making and their Goverment's fuel policies rather than outright taxation. Plus, I don't recall the US Government planning to increase tax and duty levels this year.

johnfelstead

obviously tiggers, because the tax element is smaller, the pump price is more affected in percentage terms by crude oil costs.

tiggers

And our need for fuel is different how? We choose to drive thirsty cars like Scoobs, we choose to drive long distances, we choose to travel solo and never think about carpooling ....

So we're protesting the proposed increase in duty are we?

OK then how come a few months ago BEFORE THE OIL COMPANIES RAISED THE PRICE there was no mention of protests despite the proposed increase in duty having already been announced.

Funny how in the US the problem is entirely of the population's own making whereas here we're just innocent victims - what a joke!

tiggers.

tiggers

John,

Thanks! Yes I did already realise why it has increased so much, my post was not asking that - it was merely a little tongue in cheek and also deisgned to make people think what the reaction in the UK might be if fuel costs doubled within a year.

Cheers,

tiggers.

damian666

tiggers, you are wrong.

There are fuel protests in the US, just like in the UK.

Google 'gasout' for some examples.

The fabled email we have almost all recieved, originated in the USA.

HTH
Damian

tiggers

Damian,

Wrong - me never!!

I was refering to the sort of physical blockades rather than any email campaign. I have just returned from working out there for four weeks and can tell you that although they are not happy about it there is no intention (or any that I heard) to physically protest about it by blocking fuel supplies etc. unlike the UK.

Like I say I can only go on what I heard in the media out there as well as talking to people while out and about.

tiggers.

Brendan Hughes

I would not like to imagine, in the current political and economic climate, what would happen if a bunch of people tried to blockade a refinery in the USA

Faire D'Income

First off, if you compare the average European driver's vehicle to the US equivalent you'll find that they're a hell of a lot more economical this side of the pond. The distances we drive in are much smaller than in the US as well, they'll think nothing of driving 1500 miles whereas we'll usually take the plane or train.

That is my understanding, yes. That's also the view taken by the Road Haulage Association and the so called leader of the protest group, David Handley and certainly the Opposition's position. What did you think it was about?

First of all, the oil companies didn't raise the price. This is market forces in action, even OPEC doesn't want oil prices this high and was aiming for crude prices to be around the $22.00 to $28.00 level. The Government's intransigent position on duty increases later in the year on top of a surge in oil prices is what people are complaining about and I suppose is symptomatic of the electorate's perception of this Government - they just don't seem to listen. Thankfully, they seem to have got the message this time.

I don't think you fully understand what has happened to cause this dramatic increase in oil prices. If you take the US, not only do have a 'driving season' during which they drive huge inefficient SUVs and Winnebagos around their country rather than fly abroad for their holidays but they also have a very inefficient refinery system. Not only do they have to blend different grades of fuel for different states in order to meet local environmental standards but they also refuse to use their national reserves which could help reduce the cost of oil.

Throw into the pot the US's foreign policy in Iraq and their continued support for an unpopular regime in Saudi Arabia and you begin to see why I made the statement that this is largely of their own making. As I said, it's partly caused by the consumer's attitudes to energy and partly the Government's not solely that of the population as you've tried to suggest I've implied.

Of course, there are other factors involved but as you raised the issue of the US, it's those points that I'm addressing.

tiggers

I think the difference in efficiency is becoming less noticeable these days, but granted some of the vehicles out there are plain silly. I drive a SUV out there, but this is only slighly less efficient than my Scooby over here. The reason they think nothing of driving 1500 miles is simple - their country is huge and not full of cars unlike ours - it's not really their fault they live in a big country or are ypu saying they should make it smaller

What did I think it was about? Frankly I think it's just another excuse for the government bashers to start shouting. Maybe I'm wrong, but you have still not answered my question as to why we weren't all protesting a couple of months ago when the only thing that was different was that the oil prices had not risen. As for the oppostion - we just have a new definition of bandwagon jumping.

If the oil companies didn't raise the price please tell me who did. I know you say it's market forces, but if the demand goes up who decides to charge more for a barrel of oil - Tony Blair? I don't think so. Yes I understand that the government levy a lot of tax on fuel and are proposing to increase it again, but what frustrates me is we only seem to get upset when other factors come into play - why was none of this being said some months ago?

Once again I'm not sure why we feel the need to get upset about them driving around there own country - after all if they all flew abroad for a holiday they'd only be using ****loads of aviation fuel as well as petrol in their hire cars when they get there. It seems somewhat hypocritical to be sitting on a site dedicated to one of the most fuel thirsty performance cars in the world criticising another nation for daring to drive around their own country - still you no doubt won't see it like that.

Not sure your absolutely right about the refinery system - a mate of mine works in the petrol industry and although ostensibly their refineries are less efficient han some their petrol is a lot lower octane than ours and hence easier to manufacture.

As for their foreign policy that's a matter of opinion. You no doubt feel that we and they should have kept our nose out of Iraq whereas others don't etc. etc.

Finally let me tell you this - were you aware that the real cost of motoring in the UK is now less than it was ten years ago depsite these 'horrendous' petrol prices. There is also a school of thought in the study of the economics of Europe that says petrol should go up in price and not down due to the density of trffic on many of Europes roads. For instance faced with higher fuel prices people would be forced to carpool and thereby reduce traffic - not saying this is right, but it is another way of looking at it.

Anyway I'm off now, all the best,

tiggers.

mart360

Stueyb

nip down the bookies and lay out £25.00 on this one

the tax WILL go on the fuel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


jesus are we that gullable!!!

even the bloody wording was ambigous... "we might not"

imagine if hitler said we might not invade!!!!!!!!!!!

i see he,s now put a pathetic bleat out about not crucifying him at the poles

for the war in Iraq, but to look at his whole catolouge of **** ups (oops

successes)

Shows how short sighted he is

get it right and you tell ten people

get it wrong, and you tell hundreds!!!!!!

june 10th,,



ps

if i,m proved wrong, i wont appolgise, i,ll just apply some spin!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mart

Canon

Dont you just hate reason.............

tiggers

No, but we might be that gullible

tiggers.

mart360

pfffffffffffffft



touche!!!!


Mart

tiggers

Faire D'Income

I'd disagree with your point regarding efficiency, particularly when you take into account the plethora of diesel cars in Europe which is virtually unheard of. As to the US being huge, yes it is and it's full of great places to visit and holiday in, which is why Americans are relatively untravelled compared to the average European but it doesn't get away from the fact that they consume more fuel than we do. No doubt you've heard the quote about 80% of the world's emissions coming from 20% of the population - America.

No doubt there is plenty of room for the Government bashers to participate but if you look at any of the statements by the main protagonists it's about the Government's determination to still levy a duty/tax increase in September on top of the rise in crude prices.

As I said before, a couple of months ago crude oil prices weren't so high as they are now and I believe there is a general feeling amongst the electorate that this Government refuses to listen to the feelings of the public, hence the proposed fuel protests. Now I freely admit that I detest Tony Blair and large portions of his Government but even taking that bias into account it seems to me that people have a point - the Government doesn't seem to be listening to public opinion and that is why people are disgruntled with the whole fuel issue. Your point about the opposition is well made if a little obvious, because of course the Tories are going to capitalise on any area that they can - just wait until next week when they start digging into Labour about their volte face.

OPEC is the main mechanism by which oil prices rise - it is a cartel after all and it's largely a political group despite its pretensions otherwise. Massive speculation has also taken place in particular by some of the larger hedge funds in the US which has also driven prices up plus simple market forces - high demand with lack of supply. I'm not saying the oil companies are blameless because they had their part to play in lowering stocks in a bid to be more efficient which didn't allow them any room to release more product onto the market. Plus as we've seen with Shell overstating their reserves it didn't do much for market confidence either. All of these factors drive the market price upwards and whilst BP and others enjoy increased profits, even the likes of BP isn't large enough to single handedly force the prices north.

Don't confuse my reasoning with getting upset, I'm merely trying to answer the questions you raised earlier in your post. They'd use less fuel flying to a holiday location than they would driving and you're assuming that they'd all have hire cars at their destination. If you think I'm a hypocrite then that's fine by me because at the end of the day no matter how hard we try we are going to have a detrimental effect on the environment. I probably make more of an improvement to the environment than the rest of Scoobynet put together by way of the products I sell but in order to do so there is a trade off in terms of emissions from my car and the vehicles that deliver the product. However, the fuel economy that I get from driving my car is still a hell of lot better than the average Winnebago/SUV - most of my driving is on the motorway which helps which works out at around 23-24 mpg. I've struggled to get more than 12 mpg out of a Winnebago and I was really trying and the SUVs that I've driven are not much better. If we're directing our comments at America I believe that it's a great country with some fine people but their incredible arrogance towards the environment and to other nations does irritate me somewhat.

I really don't want to get into this particular debate but you are most definitely wrong here. The US uses MON as a means of octane rating whereas we use RON and every chemist I've spoken to within my industry reckons the American system is superior to our own. In effect the US rating will come out around 5 to 6 digits lower than our RON system but it is the same stuff. If anything, US fuel is harder to manufacture because different States haven't different emission standards which forces the oil refineries to formulate and produce a variety of different fuels just for one particular State.

Tiggers, we're at different ends of the political spectrum so we're unlikely to agree but as you brought it up my position is that we shouldn't have invaded Iraq based on any of the reasons that were presented to us by this Government. As Labour's various arguments got shot down we ended up with the stated objective of removing Saddam Hussein because he was a nasty man. Quite laudable but a long way from WMD or links with Al Qaeda, but if we are to be one of the world's policeman then I believe we should have got our own house in order first - that means sorting out the disgrace that is Zimbabwe and Robert Mugabe - do we still have a Commonwealth or are we to perpetually tied to the apron strings of America?

The inevitable back lash to that policy is now in action with various oil installations being targetted in the ME because we need that oil - QED.

No, I wasn't aware of that. As Imlach would say, can you prove it? I'm not saying you're incorrect but I'd be more than interested to see some facts and figures.

Europe imposes punitievely high tax levels on fuel as part of an environmental deterrent to use. As we both agreed in an earlier thread, its no use beating the motorist with a stick in order to get him out of his car if there is no viable alternative. I agree with you, car pooling and other ways of reducing congestion on our roads can only be a good thing but its going to take a massive amount of education to get people to do so. All these fat kids running around could be turned into slim jims if they were forced to walk to school and do some proper exercise but you try telling Mummy that she should get out of her stupid Chelsea tractor and let littly Johnny walk to school. However, I'm not convinced that high fuel taxation works without any alternative and until that alternative exists then Governments aren't going to persuade the motorist to get out of his car.

Anyway, nice to debate with somebody without it turning into a mud slinging contest.