Dan J

Hi guys wonder if anyone can help. Joined the local gym about a month ago with the main intention of generally bulking up all over and building up bigger, more defined arms, chest, shoulders etc. Trying to get along there 3 times a week when possible. Currently I'm pretty slim but toned so have been told with the right programme I have a good starting point.

The aim is to keep up my workouts at the gym slowly upping the weights I'm lifting as my body adjusts but as life is busy and I can't sit down and have 3-4 big meals a day I'm considering taking some supplements to help bulk up and grow. Do any people 'in the know' on here recommend doing this and if so could you please advise me on some good ones to buy. I'm guessing I'd need like protein and carb shakes?

Thanks in advance...

Dan.

fatherpierre

Norateen Heavyweight 2.

I use these for the odd month now and then and they do the stuff.

Good for a 10lb raise despite the 28lb claim in a month if you follow a good plan of eating properly and training hard.

Stock up on tuna

milo

so what programme have u been on?


you need to have 5-6+ SMALL meals a day for your metabolism.


yeah... at the moment get some whey protein and casein protein and a multi vitamin. that's IT. reflex are among the best at the best price.

once you've been lifting 6 months or so, go for these:
* creatine (reflex's creapure) OR tri-creatine malate (v12 or tri-matrix)
* HMB

don't get suckered into buying anything else.

don't even consider AAS until you've been lifting for at LEAST 2 years, preferably 5 plus. i waited 10 years... and it was WELL worth it.

make sure your diet is sound... plenty of good carbs, lots of protein, and some good fats.

muscle growth is SLOW for most people.. but dont be put off as it will come.

Faire D'Income

The only supplement I'd recommend is Creatine, Creatamax 8000 being the one I use with the added benefit of it tasting good.

Other than that I've never bothered with other supplements but you must eat quality proteins such as those absorbed from lean chicken and fish which also has Omega 3 if it's sardines or tuna for example. Also make sure you're eating plenty of fruit and vegetables combined with carbohydrates such as rice and some pasta. This diet should ensure that your body is getting sufficient fuel and vitamins thus negating the need for additional supplements.

cactus jim

not trying to hijack.

can you of you bods, assist me, i am trying to do the opposite, i am of large build, 19 stone, however am fairly fit. run, swim and cycle three times a week.

i am trying to lose bulk, i need to do more cardiovascular and weight combination work, however my main problem is eating too much, and not often enough.

where can i find information on what i should eat 6 times a day rather than the 3/4 large meals i currently have.

cheers

james

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Others will offer better advice but one thing I would recommend is to drink plenty of water. Not only is it good to keep your body hydrated you will also find it is good at suppressing your appetite

kammy

www.muscletalk.co.uk is a good but hardcore site. jim, if your eating 3-4 big dinners, as mentioned above keep drinking lots of water, and start spliting your dinners up in say two portions? You will find it hard for a week, but your stomache gets used (and your brain) and your metabolisim speeds up to. Best of luck, and losing/gainning weight isnt easy, so stick at it in the LONG RUN!
kam

milo

eat clean foods:
* protein-rich
* low(ish) gi for carbs, and not too many
* good fats - limit the saturated fats

example meals:
chicken and rice
tuna pasta
beef stir-fry (in olive oil)
steak and veggies
etc etc.

avoid:
* trans-fats / vegetable oils
* processed foods
* sauces
* anything that you can't find out the calorific content for or aren't sure about

you're looking at taking in about 3000 calories a day at your weight to lose fat, but limiting muscle loss.. spread over 6 meals, that's 500 calories per meal.

cardio alone is pointless for weight loss (ALL it does is burns calories - which you can have EXACTLY the same effect by eating fewer calories).. but it is VITAL for conditioning and fitness.

best thing you can do.. is post up your current (or intended) diet, and i'll take a look at it for you and tell you what's wrong with it.

Dan J

Damn and I was thinking I'd had no replies! Scoobynet hasn't been notifying me for some reason. Well thanks for all your advice. A few different things recommended there though so a little confused. Fortunately I like tuna though so might have to start sticking that in my sandwiches for work!

Milo - in answer to your questions the programme I'm I guess isn't a proper programme as such. I currently spend about 10 mins cycling/rowing to warm up then go round all the machines and do 3 sets of everything. I use a weight where I manage 10 in the 1st set then maybe 8 in the 2nd and 6-7 in the 3rd. Aim is to get to the point where I can complete the 3 sets of 10 then up the weight again as I'm looking to build. Sounds logical but may not be such a good programme??!!

Hmm so do I go for the whey and casein protein or the Norateen heavyweight 2 or the Creatine??? Think I have some Creatine in the shed left over from doing the fence last year! And Milo I have no idea what AAS stands for so wouldn't be considering it?!

Thanks for the help so far guys...

milo

nah, thats not such a good program at all. but to be honest, if you're a newbie, you'll pretty much grow for 3 months or so no matter what you do.


whey and casein are the logical choices for you.

creatine is good (especially tri-creatine malate), but unnecessary until you hit a plateau (look for it after about 6 months of hard training).

norateen heavyweight 2.... it is yet another marketing ploy by companies looking to make a fast buck.

bear in mind that 95% of supplements dont work and are just there for the companies to make money from. stick with the time-tested ones.

at the end of the day, its your money you're parting with, and your body you're putting any of this stuff in.. so be SURE to do the research yourself too, to make sure you're happy with what you're about to take.

Dan J

Damn just knew you'd say the programme wasn't so good! Where's the flaw in it then Milo? What would you recommend differently?

I'll look into the whey and casein then. Is it one or the other or both that I need to take and can this stuff actually cause you any harm??

milo

3 sets on every machine is the main problem. you need compound movements, with free-weights.. not machines. further, if you're doing the same movements every day, you're not giving your muscles time to recover. even the fastest recoverers need 48 hours minimum... many need up to a week for each muscle group.

you do need to find what works best for you (EVERYONE is different)... but there is some common ground for muscle growth, and that's:
squats
flat/incline bench press
military press
barbell rows
chins
deadlifts
good mornings

people tend to either grow best (depending on body type and genetics) from one of four ways:
* full body workout 3 times a week (old school)
* body part split over 3-4 times a week (1980's)
* high intensity (mentzer/jones era)
* wsb (periodization)

but if you look at any of the pros routines, from any sport, the exercises tend to stay the same (the ones listed above).


whey is fast digesting.. used for post-workout, and/or to get protein to your muscles FAST (e.g when you first wake up). it has the best amino acid profile you'll find in anything. period. but for meals, and your metabolism in general, it's next to useless... as it is digested too fast.

casein is slow digesting. protein CANNOT be stored like carbs and fats... so if you're going to have to be without meals for a few hours (e.g. overnight while you're sleeping), you need a slow digesting protein.. such as casein.

the absorbtion of whey CAN be slowed down however, by mixing it with milk and/or good fats such as flax. but even then, casein is still slower digesting and doesn't contain the sugars that milk has.

both are harmless. you do, of course, need plenty of real food too, for your metabolism, and because food contains FAR more than just protein.

suprabeast

just out of curiousity to all of you who do stick to six odd meals a day...

...do you eat them at work (ie in the office?) In which case, what are the best things to eat that aren't too messy or really need cooking?

Faire D'Income

The only point I'd disagree with is the use of machines which seem to be enjoying an unfavourable reputation at the moment which is a little unfair. The main benefit of using a machine is that it isolates the muscle you're training which can be a good thing as long as you don't use them exclusively but combine them with free weights and body weight exercises. This way you combine muscle isolation, with full movement exercises (i.e real world muscular movement) to strengthen and increase muscle size and your muscle memory doesn't come into play.

A crude example would be chest exercises whereby you use the Pec Deck for three sets of three, incline bench press for the three sets and then a set of push ups. The other thing to bare in mind is that you must alternatet the exercises that you do every month or so to avoid your muscles developing memory whereby they start to cheat on the movement and you can hit a plateau far more quickly this way.

grovesy

This always crops up after christmass and before the summer holidays.

Creatine and Steriods would do the trick

Dan J

Great help thanks people. So based on this I think I'm going to change up my programme to incorporating the free weights now and also by splitting it up i.e instead of doing everything 3 times a week one day I'll do say arms and chest, next time back and shoulders, third time legs, abs etc. Hopefully this will then give the muscles the recovery time you say they'll need. I'll spend about an hour on each session. Added to taking the protein and switching up my diet a bit hopefully this will put me on the right road.

Right now I just have to find some space amongst the muscle men in the free weights section of the gym...!

super_si

Make sure you squat and deadlift they are hard and taxing but sorts men from the boys

milo

free weights also offer isolation exercises - to use your example of pec deck... dumbell flyes provide EXACTLY the same isolation. likewise with any other exercise.

so that's not really a benefit of a machine. the sole benefit of machines is that they provide constant resistance which free weights simply cannot offer. but even with that, you can still work partials with free weights and get the same effect with additional benefits.

milo

tuppaware is your friend

im eating more than 6 meals a day and chicken salad and tuna pasta go great out of a tuppaware box

Faire D'Income

If I use the Pec Deck, I perform the exercise with my arms straight out in front of me with open palms to avoid using my biceps and shoulders as part of the movement. There is the temptation to use the biceps/shoulders when using dumbells which is what I'm getting at but I'm now straying away from the thread's subject matter, so I'll shut up.

Warwick-hunt

does six meals a day not make you fat or rather overweight a little,

a lot of the bigger lads i know all seem to be strong but out of shape, obviously you can't be in top condition all the time but having muscles and a big gut aren't ideal either.
milo put a pic of yourself on, you seem to have the most knowledge, if you look the part then i'd gladly follow your advice,

super_si

I dont think you can be inshape and still strong. But define strong? Extremly strong or just above average?
AS for 6 meals, your burning most if you train hard + you need to re grow with all the protein.

Si

milo

no. you're still taking in the same number of calories, but you're spreading them over several meals, which speeds up your metabolism. it is, in fact, the best way to shred fat.


a LOT of people bulk up, then get cut up. so you'll see bb'ers carrying fat in while they're bulking (due to the calorie surplus). it doesnt HAVE to be like this of course.. but for most people it's the fastest way.


it's not a case of "my advice".... it comes from years of proven research. i wont post my pic on here, but if you pm me your email address, i'll send it to you. bear in mind, ive worked HARD at this for well over 10 years.. it didnt come overnight.

milo

pudzianowski and LOTS of others will disagree there

super_si

i think mr GH and mr Slin have some input with his shape. Not to mention all the IV he has after every comp

Dan J

Well tonight I just concentrated on my chest and triceps at the gym with mainly free weights. The routine I did consisted of dumbell flat bench, incline dumbell fly, weighted dips for chest, bench press and pushdown tricep extension.

Next time I go I'll just be doing my back and biceps. Plan is to do deadlifts, one arm dumbell rows, lat pulldowns or chin ups, bicep curls and one arm dumbell hammer curls.

Then shoulders, legs and abs the time after that.

So 3 different sessions and areas a week giving the muscle groups time to rest inbetween. Hopefully this is a better looking programme now??!!

I'll try and get hold of the Reflex protein this week too. Do any high street places sell it? Holland and Barrett perhaps?

milo

[QUOTE=Dan J]yes. that's a WAY more standard program for building mass. LISTEN to your body tho... see how far you can push yourself and whether the routine is right for you. probably your first 2 years of lifting will/should be experimenting with different programs to see what's right for you.


yeah gnc does but they're grossly overpriced and charge about 40 quids for a tub. affordable supplements sell it online for about 32 with free delivery. whey consortium sell non-branded stuff whey ( ) cheaper.. but it tastes like *** and i have NO idea what the amino acid profile is like in it.