Neil Smalley

Ownage!
mms://stream.eizodana.com/olympus/m01_hi.wmv

Some amazing footage, even if the 'film trailer' voice is a little overdone.

SideShowBob

That film trailer voice is getting me horny, I have to stop watching now, lol.

Good footage!! all CGI'd thou

Hammy Hamster

Appauling beehive-yer.

Chilling!

ajm

Interesting clip! They sensationlised it a bit though, it sounded like one of those Channel 5 "... from Hell" documentaries.

I think the hornets shown were giant asian hornets (aka japanese hornets) attacking european bees. The indigenous asian bees have a much better system of defense:-

Poor Guy

i cant get video

ajm

you can't right-click because its streaming. Just click on the link!

Poor Guy

i know.

i can get audio

not vid

Simon Lau

Some scary stuff there!

not sure about Japanese but have seen some very similar hornets in a neighbours beehive. he usually deals with then in this way:

1. find long stick
2. silicone/epoxy glue end of stick
3. extract culprit from beehive with said stick
4. twist hornets head off with pair of pliers
5. wash hands



not sure if it's a good thing these hornets but my neighbours bees keep crapping over everyone’s car in the neighbourhood...little yellow crap dots all over the show (windscreen, roof, bonnet and etc...) and if it isn’t cleaned pronto it'll eat into the paint

LG John

Good scrap

Neil Smalley

I've found a downloadable version here(right click and save as).
http://www.notworksafe.com/HornetsVsBees.avi

You'll probably need the DivX codec www.divx.com

Been thinking about the overheating tactic of the bees. How did they work that one out and further more how did the bees that came after the ones that discovered it 'remember it'?

Muffleman

Hornet's are nasty little buggers ! Had a scrap with one whilst camping on the new forest. You here it first, it's like a small frikkin aeroplane ! Then it dives and comes at ya ..... BIG things they are.

This one took more than a couple of smacks I can tell you ! You'd whack it and it'd start moving again !!!

Poor Guy

saw a hornet and a sparrow (or summat similar) having a fight in Italy. feckin hugemugus *******s

Poor Guy

those hornets are a right load of nasty pastys. poor bees

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Evolution - The bees that did it originally will most likey have just tried to fend off the hornet, the fact that they managed to kill the hornet with that method was by chance. They will have just acted on instinct to try and defend themselves in that way. Other bees will no doubt have tried different methods but they will have been killed whereas these bees will have survived. Therefore their DNA and instinct will have become the dominant gene in that species of bees as the other bees where slowly killed over generations.

The reason why that defence works is explained by science but I doubt the bees know why it works………. Just that is does

All the above could be wrong but that would be my explanation.

Neil Smalley

STIWS

I thought that too, but that does'nt account for the 1000 bees required to overheat a hornet having the 'idea' at the same time.

As I see it, hornet comes into the nest and is surrounded by defending bees. By a fluke they manage to cook the hornet. How do the bees 'know' that it was the heat that killed it and not just them stinging it loads of times, or any other number of factors. They can't know for sure.

The bees that kill the hornet survive, but they can't pass on what they know because they can't breed, only the queen and drones can pass their DNA on. So how can evolution be involved if no DNA transfer can take place??

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Dunno mate and it’s too early on a Monday for me to go any deeper into it. Hopefully some biologist will come along and explain it all to us

ajm

bah... re read it... will need to think about that one!

Edit:

Ok I think what happens is that the passing on of genes is not direct. The drones and queen most likely to produce offspring worker bees that "bundle" en mass onto a hornet were the ones that survived, and hence the trait is passed on to the next generation. Remember, they all get the same genes passed on, and at birth there is no difference between workers and drones until their destiny is decided by what they are fed (royal jelly etc).

Neil Smalley

Ajm

That works for future bee generations, but how did it first start off?
E.g In some cases a bundling defense would be the worst thing the bees could do. So how did the bundling bees survive other attackers long enough to be able breed.

ajm

This is chicken and egg territory! The same question can be asked for any evolutionary adaptation in any animal. At some point a tiny change occured that, over thousands of generations of bees slowly leads to useful behavioural change in the decendants of that bee. As for what caused the original change the answer is probably a random, and at the time completely insignificant, abnormality that lead to that bee's offspring being minutely more inclined to bundle rather than take turns stinging. Its a gradual and involuntary change rather than a point in time when bees suddenly learned to cook their enemies!

As for the question about it being the wrong defense for some situations, all permutations would have been tried over time. Out of those that were likely to attack en mass there would be subgroups who would be more likely to only use that attack on hornets etc. etc.

Neil Smalley

That's whats got me thinking. If the wrong defense means the colony is destroyed then how can any 'advances' in hive survival be carried over to the next generation and so progress the species. Logically they can't. Can, worms, everywhere...

ajm

That's the point, they don't - only the ones more inclined to do it right will survive long enough for their traits to become bred in.

When it comes to evolving, bees (and a lot of other insects) have 2 important advantages over most mammals. Their lifecycle is much shorter, and their numbers are greater. This means that, whilst they don't have the intelligence to change their behaviour, in the same space of time they will have had many more births and deaths with which to breed in desirable behaviour and characteristics.

As I said above, out of those that were more likely to attack en mass, there would be some that would be minutely more inclined to do it in the right way and to the right attacker and some that would do it the wrong way. Using the wrong defense would indeed stop those bees from further procreating, but those bees in the other stream, the ones more likely to use the right defense would survive. Over vast amounts of generations this slight likelihood would become more and more likely, until you get consistent behaviour across the species. There are millions of permutations to get the right behaviour, but then there have been billions of bees over millions of years!

Neil Smalley

This is my logical sticking point. If a wrong permutation means the death of the bees and therefore all the 'improvements' so far then it follows that only the bees that, for better words make the right decisions at every stage will live.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

and that percentage of the population increases slowly over time due to the reason mentioned above. Ultimately the vast majority then have the trait that ensures survival. This means that now maybe 99% of the bees instinctively group. 1% may not but they are now more likely to survive due to the behavior of the 99%

ajm

You don't lose all improvements so far, it just means that bees following that particular path will die. At the same moment in time there are others that are more likely to do it right who will not die. What you are saying is only true if all the bees at a given moment in time were exact genetic clones of each other and were behaving exactly the same. However, thanks to the numbers of bees involved and therefore the increased chances of other "random abnormalities", at any given moment in time there are bees behaving subtley different. Genetic diversity is the key.