NACRO

From the pages of the august journal (for scoobynets epsilons this doesn't mean that it came out in august )

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004182191,00.html


I know there are some of you on here who have similar views, I thought it would be good to see what happens when you are outed and believe me you will be eventually.

NotoriousREV

Glad to see he's gone for his racist comments, but why are The Sun trying to get a shock reaction to him calling a player a "lazy f*ck" or a a "little tw*t".

Anyone else notice that his excuse was "I didn't realise my comments were being broadcast" rather than "I'm a racist bigot?". Hmm, I'm sorry I got caught?

TelBoy

NACRO, you're as vociferous as anyone when it comes to racism.

How, precisely, does it affect your daily life? What has influenced your opinions towards it?

NACRO

It affects all our daily lives one way or another, causing divisions between people, in some cases precipitating violence.

My views on racism and racists were formed from an early age, I was one of 3 white children at my primary school, most other children there were from Pakistan, India or Africa. I wasn't the subject of any racist abuse from the majority despite the fact that I was a racial minority. Hard to imagine that happening had the situation been reversed.
I was brought up not even really seeing someones skin colour as any different from the fact they wore glasses or that they are left handed. I got a shock when I went to secondary school and found most of the white kids I met there were rampant and rabid racists, just like their parents.
Since then I've been involved with the anti racist and anti **** movements in the UK although being so far away means my only involvement now is supporting them through donations.

TelBoy

Do you think that racism is an instinctive human reaction, or do you believe all negative attitudes have had to be learnt?

NACRO

I think it's all purely environmental, not genetically pre-determined. My own experiences support that supposition as well as numerous studies on the phenomenon.

Dream Weaver

Get over yourself Nacro. I went to a similar secondary school, and both ethnic groups gave as good as each other.

At one time, an asian lad smacked my sister in the mouth for no reason. Needless to say he didnt stay in school for long

Both groups at my school were equally as good or bad, with both racism and friendliness. Our Asian mates always used to say we smelt of cream which made me laugh - that would be contrued as racism, but it certainly never bothered me.

As for Big Ron - he has made a big mistake, but he's human not a robot.

TelBoy

What's the Utopia then, NACRO? A heterogeneous population with identical cultures, identical religions, identical customs, identical ideologies?

Isn't this a an impossibility? Isn't the notion of a world without racism a pipe dream?

ProperCharlie

IMO racism is often a product of scarcity of resources. people feel think well being and livlihood is threatened, and so "outsiders" are made into scapegoats.

doesn't excuse it though, and all racism is still founded upon ignorance.

Scooby96

There will ALWAYS be racism, fact

ProperCharlie

so what? we should just accept it? you might as well say "there will always be car crime" or "there will always be sexual harassment"

what's your point?

Scooby96

I was replying to TB's reference to a " pipe dream" saying that there will always be some element of it so it will never be erradicated.

Wasnt really trying to make some big point other than agreeing that anyone who thinks it can be is misguided, or deluded.

NotoriousREV

Surely Utopia is the diversity we already have, without the hatred?

The fact is, as a left-handed glasses wearer, we always find something to seperate ourselves from others. I've been called "speccy" and "gammy handed". SN'ers refer to Evo owners as "the dark side", people shout "oi baldy" at people with no hair, but people don't actively hate these differences, or at least no one has ever left a burning glasses case on my lawn.

ProperCharlie

S96 - fair enough.

Personally, I agree more with NACRO than with Tel.

As for Big Ron "making a mistake" - it's a pretty big mistake to a professional broadcaster. He has done the right thing, though, in resigning and apologising.

TelBoy

The interaction, and reaction to, different races of poeple is different from almost any other malais in our environment. Car crime is just not comparable in any way, shape or form. Sure, a world without the hatred would be nice, and we have to attempt to limit what i see as an instinctive, defensive attitude towards people of different creeds, but at the end of the day, for all the progress humans are able to make, i firmly believe this will be a barrier that will never be fully overcome.

NACRO

Tel, do you believe that two children of different races who were brought up together would have an instinctive, defensive attitude towards each other?
I don't, my own personal experience tells me this, racism is purely a product of environment. Impossible to prove either way though.

ProperCharlie

Tel - i know you think that but i just don't understand why.

For example - do you "instinctively" hate french people? do you have a "defensive" attitude towards spanish food? do chelsea fans "insinctively" hate their players of african origin?

NotoriousREV

NACRO, children brought up together always find ways to pick on each other, regardless of race. Instinctive defensive attitude? Definately, it's all about ascertaining and maintaining your status in the pack.

At the top of the pack is the guy who's good a sports that felt up Laura Jones behind the bike shed, at the bottom of the pack is the spotty nerd that called the history teacher "mum".

We all make snap judgements about people, based on a million and one things. Ever look at a guy in an anorak with thick glasses and think "paedophile"? Unfortunately, some people also make judgements of people based on their race.

It's instinctive and natural BUT as intelligent animals we are wholly able to overcome this on an individual level. You are responsible for your own actions and thoughts.

NACRO

quote: "NACRO, children brought up together always find ways to pick on each other, regardless of race. Instinctive defensive attitude? Definately, it's all about ascertaining and maintaining your status in the pack"

Obviously this doesn't have anything to do with their race per say though does it?

What I would agree with is that people compete for resorces and that racism is a by product of this. Again environmental not genetic.

CrisPDuk

True racism, i.e; racial hatred is just another method the extremists (on all sides) employ to gain influence & control over a section of population, there is no difference, IMO between racism based on the colour of your skin, sectarianism based on what (if any) religion you choose to practise.
In fact I my personal opinion is that modern 'racism' has it's roots in religion in any case. During the middle ages the biggest threat to the catholic church's cruel & vicious grip over the population was the open minded & educated muslim faith, practised in the main by coloured people in the form of the moors. The christian leadership merely played on the fear of God they had induced into the masses since way back when, and created the anti muslim hysteria that was the crusades. And how did you spot a muslim? Simple, he wasn't european, ergo, he wasn't white.
This politico/religious indoctrination later manifested itself into the belief that coloureds are somehow 'less than human' and thus is born the slave trade of the 18th & 19th centuries.
Bring it into the modern day & what do you get? The gospel according to St Rupert of Murdoch (the decendant of transported criminals). On the one hand, whipping up intense racial hatred in the form of the 'send them back where they came from' approach to immigration, and on the other hand, exposing a popular TV presenter for a slip of the tongue during a 'brain-out' moment.
It is my personal opinion that Ron meant nothing sinister when he used the term '******', it was just a way of identifying Desaille, like calling Gascoine fat or Beardsley ugly, and IMO it should be allowed to stay on the programme. Lets' face it people on TV & have done far worse and are retained in the media's (if not the public's) affection, Michael Barrymore, Angus Deayton, Leslie Grantham, etc.

CrisPDuk

Ah, a fellow blind devil worshipper Are you fat & bald (like me) into the bargain NREV?

ProperCharlie

CrisP - agree with much of what you say; however i think Ron's position was untenable after he used the N word. Once it became widely known, he wouldn't be able to criticise any black players in his commentary as everyone would be thinking "yeah but big ron would say that cos he's a racist"

NotoriousREV

No, absolutely not, but consider this:

My Mum used to teach a class for newly settled immigrants in the 70's and I went along to one of the classes as a child of about 4 or 5. At this age I had never seen a real black person before (not a very diverse population where we lived). I still remember the telling off I got off my mum for asking if they were gorillas. (Luckily I only whispered it to her)

Looking back, it sounds horribly racist, but I was an innocent child being exposed to something new. I remember being very scared of these people. After a few visits that went away and the whole idea of them even being different disappeared with it. Exposure to multi-culturalism helps bridge the gap, helps with our understanding and reduces the "fear" of the things we don't know.

NotoriousREV

fattening and balding

Tiggs

ron hasn't said sorry for being rasicts becuase he doesnt belive he is....i am not saying he is or isnt but i work in an area where a lot of people would have said what he said......equally, anyone from any culture/background could walk down the street without anyone giving it a second thought.

to many ppl ron just latched on to what the player was in a negative way.

for example, im tall so he may have called me lanky, if the player was ginger, etc, etc, etc

again, right or wrong, he was attacking the most striking physical characteristic of the person- something we all do. if you had to describe barry manilow the first thing you would say is big nose...if you were to insult him you would latch on to that.

i have no strong opinion on what ron said- not what i would have said....but i think football is for thickos and thugs so what do i know!

my points is not to give my opinion but to explain why...untill that generation of ppl dies you will not stop those instinctive reactions from them.

T

edit to add that i meant the geographical area i work in .....not the company i work for- we are all lovely!........as are the ppl who live here...but you get the point.....!

Scooby96

My Nan is wary of 'negros' - made me laugh when one of her grandaughters "brought one home" one christmas (her words not mine BTW) and announced they were getting married.

As people have said earlier in this thread, its fear that breeds racism, the unknown....

Two years on and my Nan has a completely different opinion of blacks.

FrenchBoy

Something's wrong here.... two pages of intelligent reasonable debate!!! With legible spelling and grammer too!!!

Where's the name calling and pathetic defence of untenable positions via ridicule and ill-judged bitter sarcasm?

This isnt the SN i know and love!!!

I'm off to the Nova forum.....

Scooby96

Sod off you frogggg

CrisPDuk

BTW I forgot to add in my original post, that IMO Ronnies judgement of Desailles performance wasn'tthat far off the mark

PS, what is the difference between Ron calling Ranieri a 'wop', and the national press calling the french 'Frogs'?

Apart, obviously, from the fact that the english media don't like the french, and currently they do like Ranieri

gregjd

Whilst I obviously don't advocate Ron's comments, I think ITV's coverage will be poorer without him. He brings a welcome touch of humour to even the most dour of matches and his Ron-isms crack me up.

Being a Wednesdayite he's also a bit of a hero figure that'll take more than an isolated gaffe to tarnish for me anyway.. We've all said things we've regretted..just not on national TV!

I tend to agree Desailly is a plonker, after his needless recent sending off and his elbow against Morientes which he should also have definitely walked for. A better choice of words than Ron used was perhaps in order

Maybe he was redressing the balance after being called "Big" & "Fat" by all and sundry for years.