BMWhere?

I was just a little surprised that the Government have backtracked on this issue and are giving us a referendum on the EU constitution. I can't help thinking that Blair has only done this to take some of the heat off the Iraq issue.

I'm quite sure that the majority of the public will not personally read the constitution prior to voting on this and the way that the majority of people vote will be governed by the tabloid press rather than informed decisions based on the contents of the proposed constitution!

I personally believe that putting such an important decision about the future of the UK and the EU as a whole into the hands of a politically unaware public that follow the tabloids like sheep is very dangerous to say the least. Particularly given that the UK press is well known for guideing the public down the route that they believe will sell more papers rather than what they believe is best for the country!

IMHO, this referendum will be a huge mistake!

MattW

I agree. I am fairly politically aware, but don't know any details about the proposed constitution.

Prior to the vote I will obviously read up but most people won't.


Edited to say - What is good for an individual is not necessarily good for the country as a whole. The papers are likely to have one eye on what's good for them, maybe even individually as journos.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

I've added a poll to this thread - just to get a rough idea of where people (reading SN) stand, for the sake of interest.

Brendan Hughes

AB-solutely.

I predict this:

Poor figures are trotted out - press says "see, we shouldn't accept the constitution."

Good figures are trotted out - press says "ah, but these have just been massaged to persuade us to accept the constitution. Don't trust them."

With the British attitude to the EU in the last 30 years, not a hope in hell of passing it. Unless of course Murdoch is given even more extensive press ownership rights by Blair in return for a Euro-friendly attitude (witness what is happening in US at present).

MattW

We know the Govt is pro Europe, unfortunately the govt has lost a lot of credibility and is distrusted by many, makes it more likely an anti vote will win.

fast bloke

Puff - it might be an idea to add an option for 'read fist before voting'

I will personally read the News of the World - see what it suggests and do the opposite

unclebuck

Indeed. However, a General Election will come first. I'm not sure there will be a Labour government to defeat after that. There may be a clean slate, so people *might* vote sensibly.

UB

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

"read fist before voting"???

I always read the papers, watch the news and then create my own opinion before voting, but reading my fist? New one on me!

Brendan Hughes

He's from Norn Irn, so it probably says either LOVE or HATE, depending which one he's reading

fast bloke

[loves Brendan ...... with a right hook]

erm - Puff - first

Leslie

The most important point about the constitution is whether you want to give more power than ever to Brussels to control your life and not have enough voting power to be able to change any of their decisions.

Brendan Hughes

here we go. So tell me Leslie, in a country of about 40 million voters, exactly how much power do you think you have to change THIS government's decisions?

Back on topic - official EU page (not exactly unbiased) and a copy of the document itself at the top (pdf) is here.

BMWhere?

In priciple I do agree with a constitution, so have voted Yes above, but thats without reading it. If the Government insist on me making the decision for them, then I'll read the constitution in full and make an informed decission on whats best for the UK and the furture of the EU. I will be avoiding the tabloid press as usual

Personally, I would rather not have to go to all the trouble and trust that our government will make the correct decision on our behalf. At this moment in time I would prefer to see how many people really want a referendum rather than which way poeple would vote!

fast bloke

'Personally, I would rather not have to go to all the trouble and trust that our government will make the correct decision on our behalf'


ROTFLMAO

Suresh

Disagree. Nothing wrong with direct democracy. Just ask your neighbours, the Swiss. They have economically [though not morally] done quite well, nicht wahr?

BMWhere?

Wahr!

But the Swiss are much better politically educated than us Brits and have referendums every couple of months. They also don't have a press that twists the facts to their advantage. They are presented with the facts in an unbiased manner and will make an informed judgement.

The majority of people in the UK don't have a clue about politicks particularly European politciks and the knock on effects of the decisions they make. The majority decision in the UK is formed on what they read in the Sun/Mirror etc.

Do you think that the Government will send a copy of the constitution to every address? I doubt it, it would cost too much.

Do you think the press will print the constitution in full (in installments) or even direct readers to a website to download it? I don't think so! The press will selectively print parts to help back up thier opinion.

Do you think the average person will do a search on the Internet to find the Constitution, let alone read past the first page before getting bored? Very unlikely!

I hate politicians as much as anyone else and I wouldn't trust them as far as I can kick them, but in terms of who's in a better position to make a decision on the Euro constitution I'd say the government are the better of two evils!

tiggers

There shouldn't be a referendum - that is what we have an elected government for. The real problem is that the majority of the British public are too stupid to be allowed to make this decision. They will simply vote whichever way their paper of choice tells them to.

The only way the referendum can work effectively is if it includes 5 questions on the constitution that have to be answered correctly for the vote to be counted. It will never happen, but why should you people be allowed to vote on something they probably don't understand or haven't taken the time to find out about.

tiggers.

Suresh

I'm not sure the British public are as stupid as you suggest. Tabloid [low brow] journalism is rife everywhere. Isn't "Blick" the biggest-selling Swiss newspaper?

I would suggest apathy might be a bigger problem.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Alstair what are Politiciks?? are they German things

Where can we the general public read this Constitution to see what is in it???

mart360

please can you clarify what the poll is relating to??

or are you a politician...

is it yes i agree to the constitution or no i disagree with the constitution


or


yes we should have a referendum on a constittuition or no we shouldnt have a referendum on a constitution???


tell the eu to **** off


tb would sell his granny and his family if he thought he could president of the eu


its obvious he dosnt care about the country....

mart

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

TB is that Telboy

Is there something we should now about you Telboy

unclebuck

The problem is that this government has it's own (largely hidden) agenda, and they cannot be trusted to make the right decisions on behalf of the people of this country.

We don't know what the implications of signing up really are. We haven't been consulted. That is why a debate, then a vote is needed. I would think (hope) that all the stoopid people won't bother to vote anyway.

UB

BMWhere?

AFAIK, Blick is only in Germany and to call it a newspaper is stretching the description. Its only about 6 pages long, 1 of which is general sport, 2 are usually a Michael Schumacher double spread, another 2 are general titilation, which leaves just 1 page to cover all other news, political or otherwise and is hardly going to swing any votes. Its considered more of a comic than a newspaper. I also don't know of any other 'tabloid' style newspapers in Germany or Switzerland.

I'v bin ovr here two lonk. I kan't spill recht any moor! Besides, you spillt mi name wrong too

There was a link to the constitution thingy in one of the earlier posts!


The agenda of the government itself would be laregely irrelevent as the constitution would be voted on by parliament as a whole.

The hidden agenda of the tabloid press would have much greater effect on attaining the wrong decision (whatever is right or wrong) in the case of a referendum.


Not if the government introduce mandatory voting as they are planning!

Nimbus

LMAO. And you think this govenment (providing they are still in power) will not twist the facts and present you with facts in an unbiased manner???

Holy Ghost

just some food for thought:

the EU constitution creates a european union that is a legal entity in its own right for the first time and will require its own president and a foreign minister -


ask yourselves:

- is this the first step to european 'nationhood'? if you think yes, do the additional implications for our sovereignty and the primacy of parliament bother you?

- what other similar "tidying up exercises" (blair's words) are planned?

- will the president & foreign minister be directly elected by us, the people - or simply appointed undemocratically by brussels solely on the mandate of our default membership of the EU?

- why has the EU moved away from its origins as a mutually-supportive trading bloc to a nascent, centrally-governed federation of states?

- why does the EU want its own army? the co-opting of naval and air power cannot be far behind.

- why does EU law already have primacy over UK law?

- do you trust this government to ask a straight question in a referendum without trying to make this a partisan "we're in or we're out" debate? (remember, blair campaigned on a "leave europe" labour ticket in 1983: a spectacular, but still unexplained reversal of principle).

i'm often sceptical of the EU but on balance i support our membership of it from a trade perspective. however, i smell the creation of a united states of europe by a series of small increments that will keep slipping under the electoral radar until it's too late.

it's time to put the brakes on and maintain our circumspection: we're the 4th biggest economy in the world and the majority (by a small margin) of our foreign trade takes place outside of the EU. we are, by dint of this position, automatically at the top table. our continued prosperity does not require ever-closer integration with a self-serving system that is both undemocratic and demonstrably corrupt.

stay in the EU & work to reform it - but no to the EU constitution.

unclebuck

Or to put it another way (at least, as I currently see it) - they need us more than we need them.

Having the world's 4th largest ecomony on board must represent an invaluable 'cash cow' to the smaller members. (Of which there are an increasing in quantity year on year.)

Holy Ghost

i'd agree UB - and i'd add that despite them needing us more than we need them, membership (within reason) is a good thing for us in the long term.

cash cow? you bet. we contribute more than we take out to the tune of billions. the irish love it; the portugese love it; the italians love it; the greeks really love it. and i'm sure from may 1st, newly-arrived eastern europe will love it too.

another question: why is romano prodi always against referenda? could it be that he hates the idea of what he sees as the little people (us) queering the pitch for his political vanity?

BMWhere?

The point of this thread was not to discuss the rights or wrongs of a European Constitution, but to discuss weather the media influenced British public are capable of making the decision in the form of a referendum that is in the best interest of the UK.

unclebuck

What's the weather got to do with anything?

UB

Brendan Hughes

The fact that the Brits spend more time discussing it than serious political issues?