mj

sort of computer related .....please don't move mods

My 12 yr old daughter seems to have taken to writing webpages, ok, its not the be all and end all, but I don't think it's too shabby for a snapper, its certainly better than I could do.

have a quick look, can you tell me if the text lines up, it does on the laptop but not a 19" CRT.

http://www.freewebs.com/sugaplumme/


couple of questions;

Is this something I should encourage her in?, when I was 12 the kind of hobbies I had were not really career based, usual stuff, shoplifting,fireraising,advanced firework modifications etc.. etc. What software should I get so she can shine? , she seems to have a basic grasp of HTML, though I think she copies n' pastes a bit more than she lets on , though that can't be a bad thing, at least she knows what to plaguerise

There always seems to be loads of threads on SN about how sh1te IT is nowadays, is it that bad? I can't help thinking there will always be work for web design, as its not so much what you know, more how you "do it" - she always has been quite artistic.

cheers,

mike.

milo

to be honest, i dont know anyone in IT that would recommend their own kid that its good career-wise. in fact, quite the opposite - most people i know try to steer their kids AWAY from it. the career limitations are very real, and the whole industry is marred by management incompetency. i think the same can probably said for most industries in some respects.

DEFINITELY encourage her tho (why wouldn't you?!). it sounds like she could end up in something more like graphic design than web programming/development.

btw, the site won't line up properly on all machines (it doesnt on mine for instance). taking a quick look, it's because she's using layers.. with absolute values for where they appear. while it probably looks good on her 800x600 (for example) resolution, it doesn't look at all right on my 1024 res. i can take a further look if you'd like, but would have to charge my standard consultancy rate (maybe IT isn't THAT bad afterall)

fast bloke

been in IT..... my advice would be.... run away..... 10 years ago it was a licence to print money (did I get that right Telboy) but now only a gifted few are making serious dollars.

James Neill

iTrader: (1)

My prediction is that you need to be careful over the next few years. Programming is becoming a commodity - as frameworks for development mature (eg, RUP) - and a lot of it is getting outsourced (eg, India, China, eastern europe soon I think).

This means you need to think how you get the programming skills and then jump to something better positioned that is protected (eg, trouble-shooting, creative thinking, IT strategy/consultancy).

Don't get me wrong there will always be IT skills needed. But I think as the use of IT increases it's the thinkers and planners that will predominate in the "western world" and the do'ers will be off shored.

ajm

The text is anchored in place but the background (which is centered) moves around behind the text if you change the size of the window. She needs to either anchor the background in a fixed place, align it to the left and realign the text to suite, or enclose the whole lot in a fixed width frame so that the size of the IE window makes no difference to the layout.

MooseRacer

Definately encourage her.

I've been in IT for the last 17yrs - since I left school at 16. Sure the fast buck is harder to come by these days, but then that's helping get rid of the dross who had no real interest or skill in IT but blagged their way in for a quick bit of money.

IT is no more or less hindered by management than other walks of life, it depends on the company and the managment.

For decent people the oppurtunities and reward are still very much there, for everyone else try a plumbing course, I hear that's the next big thing

milo

that depends. IT management is OFTEN made up of two types of people:

* pure technical staff who are useless as a manager, but end up getting promoted there anyway as they want career progression
* managers who got there because they're useless in a technical role so are "promoted" out of being able to do any real damage

NO other industry has the same quantity of these types of managers in.


it depends what you class as "opportunities and rewards". how many managing directors got to where they are via an IT route? (answer: not many, especially in non-IT companies). if you're satisfied with circa 50k/year, then sure, that's fine. but if you have aspirations for running a major company or even just getting to board level, and THAT'S what you consider a real "opportunity", then IT is NOT the way in.

a LOT of people get into IT because they're told there's plenty of opportunity and reward... THEN they find out what one person's interpretation of a good opportunity is NOT the same as their's.

ProperCharlie

but then most technical skills are not a route to getting onto a board of directors. the vast majority of people will earn less than £50k, whether they are satisfied or not. IMO you have to be very driven and motivated to make money, or else very fortunate, to end up at director type level. most plumbers aren't going to end up running ICI either, are they?

milo

nope, but they don't go into it thinking there might be a route there, as nobody says "there's heaps of career opportunities in plumbing".

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

Guys, you forget something... job satisfaction!

I've been in IT since I was 19, but I've been programming since I was 12! Work in IT has always been exactly what I wanted to do! Certainly wasn't the wrong career decision for me

Now 24, not making mega money but atleast I work with something I like and getting paid to do coursework for my degree

ProperCharlie

they do on this bbs

i kind of see your point, but i would have thought it would be a bit naive to go into a company as a geek and think that you were going to end up running the show.

milo

im not saying that.

im saying that when people say "there's heaps of opportunity in IT", it WILL be interpreted by lots of people to mean you can go all the way.

fact is, you can't.

i'm not saying as a geek (i.e. programmer -> CEO). i'm saying this route would APPEAR logical:

developer -> lead developer -> technical architect -> chief information officer -> CEO

but MOST companies don't even have any technical levels after developer. almost no company, even if they have a CIO, would let them get to CEO level. i know of VERY few companies that have a CIO on the board of directors. even going down an IT management results in early ceilings at project manager level. even the best ones end up doing what? program management? it director (which is CARRYING OUT board-level decisions... NOT making them).

to me (and probably MANY others), opportunity means being able to shape a company and determine the strategic direction. NOT sitting at a desk making circa 50k/year as someone who hires and fires techies, which a lot of people seem to confuse career progression with.

let's not fool people that there is REAL opportunity in IT:

in IT can you make a good wage doing what someone else tells you? of course.

in IT can you get into a position to really shape a major company's strategic direction? VERY unlikely.

lightning101

IT manager for an oilfield company in NE of scotland.

Its only £140K for a 4 bed detached new house in the best area up here - so £50k a year lets you have nice house, nice car and to be honest there is no competition for IT jobs here (almost pick and choose with the right qualifications).

Also I only work from 9am to 4.30pm 1hr for lunch, no weekends, and live within 8 miles of my work - with new dual carriageway going in about a mile from me and loads of twisty back roads to work if I so desire.

I could not work down south or even Edinburgh for this kind of wage though.

Developer - hard work - reasonable pay.
IT Manager - **** all work - decent pay, and in charge of staff - with directorship oportunities.

milo

you're saying at your company there are many former IT managers on the board of directors??

ProperCharlie

some companies use the term "director of such and such" to mean "manager of such and such". i suppose they think it sounds as though they are giving the person more kudos, without actually giving them more, errr, kudos.

lightning101

No only one of 4 directors is IT. - was being comparitive to the earlier post - about whether IT was worth pursuing as a career - agree with you that you can only go so far - unless you work for microsoft etc and come up with some amazing new program e.g. super encryption for modem communication - LOL.

But the point I made is that not many people that live in my area of the world earn what I earn or live the lifestyle I live, or have the free time I have, what else could I do that has the same opportunities and time to spend with my family. I am only 30 by the way - IT manager for last 5 years, technician before that - doing SVQ level 3 then 4 in management.

milo

yes - they're definitely NOT really a director tho. another misconception, telling people that "you can be a director from an IT route" - i would take that to mean what they're saying. NOT to mean you can be the manager with a snazzy job title.

job title upgrades happen all too much, and IT is all too keen on giving "senior" in front of a job title, when the role, and the person doing the role, clearly isnt.

another point is, if in IT management you're doing "**** all work" and turning up from 9-4:30, there will NEVER be REAL top level opportunity for you. no offense, if you're happy with that, cool. but NO decent company will put someone who does "**** all work" in a position to shape the company.

milo

and they're on the board of directors? or are you saying they just have the word "director" in their job title?

lightning101

Agreed - but I doubt the guys question for his daughter was about how she could shape a company. Think you need to be a director and shareholder to have that opportunity. This makes interesting reading.

Sector

Average

Lowest

Highest

Academic (HE)

17800

8600

60000

Independent/Other (including Business)

15100

11000

55000

Charities

15000

13000

27200

Legal

14700

10500

22500

Government (not local)

13100

10600

35200

Education/FE

12700

10500

32500

Public

12600

8200

50500

Prison

11800

8900

13800

Health

11500

9700

28000

Schools

11300

9700

20400

Table 3 Average, lowest and highest salaries by sector

lightning101

He was an IT manager - but also a friend of the owner, but yes he is on the board of directors and is listed in the company registration, papers etc as such. This is more face fitting, than ability I believe. (Not jealous - although he does less real work than me). If I was truly after Job Satisfaction I would start my own company and be the Chairman of the board - if that what float peoples boat.

MooseRacer

Milo I happen to think your view of progression within a company on the back of IT is both jaded and wrong.

In my experience there are plenty of company directors with IT backgrounds, as time goes on this can and will increase.

Of course a 'geek' who's superb at programming, and has superb technical skills but lacks the business awareness, social skills, management ability and in most cases simple common sense will never make a good manager let alone director but again that is 100% not peculiar to IT.




The vast majority of those working in IT are too lacking in skills outside of IT to progress above a technical level and yet seem unable to understand that, feeling somehow hard done by.

Simple fact if you're good management or director material then IT is just as good a route as any.

milo

name the companies then.


nope, the majority of directors and ceos are from a sales/marketing background.

milo

it may or may not be - but it's kind of gone beyond that discussion now, into "what do you define as an opportunity" and about ceilings in IT in general.

it's no good people telling this guy that there's plenty of opportunity in IT, if by opportunity and reward you mean "can earn 30k", when he's thinking on a different scale.

maybe the original poster of this should define what he's concerned about for a career in IT, and what he would hope his daughter COULD achieve.

lightning101

Think entrepreneur would be another good route. But in answer to director backgrounds - none of the directors bar the sales and marketing director in my company are from that background. Their is an engineering director, with BSc in Eng., managing director is entrepreneur, Accounts director has accounting background and anyone else at board level just invested plenty of cash and are more having fun with their money than the working directors.

Managing director/owner - works day and night 7 days a week and flys from norway to UK twice a week, has two ferraris that never move from storage, racing bike, parachute jumping club member (never goes anymore) and sees his wife about once a week.

This is not what I want out of life.

MooseRacer

The last 3 companies I've worked for have had Directors with IT backgrounds, all large multi-nationals.



I think you're forgetting finance guys but apart from that, of course they are and I wouldn't expect it to be any different - yet. IT is still a relatively new profession so no surprise there.

As per my previous post, when people in IT wake up they'll progress. In good companies strong managers will progress regardless of their discipline, it's rather odd to suggest otherwise.

milo

please name them. was the ceo from an IT background in any?


two things:
* what about people in IT who do not WANT to be managers, but still want to shape the company?
* your theory is great, but in reality it doesnt seem to (for whatever reason) happen quite like that

FrenchBoy

I cant understand why so many people are so down on IT on here!

Is IT the best way to conquer the world? - Prob not! But....
If you want to get yourself a job that can earn you sums above the average wage quickly then - yes.

If you want to get yourself on the board of a large company then do one of the following:

1. Make sure you are a man.
2. Be very rich to start with and go to a private school and then go on to Oxbridge.
3. Start your own company and make it very successful.

The only thing that i'd say is that getting into web-design is prob the most populated route into IT (bit like bass players in bands), its prob one of the easiest things to do quickly and therefore the market is saturated with people who have spent 5 mins with MS'FrontPage' and then claim to be 'web designers'.

If i were you i'd be right behind her all the way and hope that she sticks with it.

FrenchBoy

With regards to software get her Dreamweaver MX, its quite pricey but its the best web-design suite out there.

ProperCharlie

milo - not sure what you mean about people who don't want to be managers but want to "shape the company". any involvement in making a company work requires management skills. without these, i really don't see how anyone is going to make it in a commercial environment.

unclebuck

Hold on. Why does "working with computers" have to mean working in IT? I work with computers. I have for the last 14 years. I started out in the music industry as a 'programmer' sequencing and sampling things for various studios and eventually moved into 3D animation and the games industry where I still work as a consulant artist now. OK, I admit these days I'm thoroughly bored with it, but plenty of young kids work in Games and love every minuite of it. Not many girls though I have to admit, but there are a few. In fact thinking about it, when I visit clients in the States just about every company has female artists.

UB