f1

Just an update on my post of a few weeks back that got V out of hand and off topic.

Saw a D.I today and agreed with him the officers in question would be getting an 'informal'(apparently being changed soon to formal) warning, and it would go onto their file. D.I thanked me for my concern and that is that.

I'm , they are . Nuff said really !

Chris29

Don't quite remember the thread. Was it about driving?

If so, were you told the consequences of what having something on file, informal or formal will have on those officers careers. For one, every time they go to court they will have to disclose this to the defense solicitor and can be asked about it in court, (so officer, you have charged my client with theft but i see you have a discipline record? What makes you qualified to assess my client?)

Secondly, that will stay on file for up to 30years depending on the officers length of service.

Then there's career development. Forget it for the people concerned, people with blots on their record very rarely get other jobs in force easily.

Special priority payments, nope!

Probably have to take their driving course again (3 weeks and difficult)

Police vehicles are insured under the drivers insurance so they will suffer insuring their own cars at a later stage.

You probably spoke to complaints and discipline department. It's there sole job to investigate complaints and act on them and believe me they come down hard on us every time.

So for what in a normal world would have been a fine, possibly points these officers have problems (and a fine and points more than likely!)

Not a flame, you did what you thought right, just thought you should know probable consequences. What may be a qucik hit in the real world is generally 10 times worse for us.

BOB.T

I'm not sure what happened either but surely the officers involved were aware of the above and should have considered it before doing whatever they did and I presume it can only be a bad thing if it turns out they're guilty, if so they deserve whatever they get!

I'm not having a go btw

BuRR

I think that Chris is trying to explain that as long as the complaint is justified, then there's no problem from our point of view. Helps us to weed out the bad apples.

The problem comes when someone reports an officer as a kind of knee-jerk reaction to an act by that officer that affects them. Usually, this comes after that person has been arrested, or processed for something or another.

Now, PLEASE, I am NOT saying that this is the case here. I am just speaking in general terms.

Ok... back on track... Therefore, a complaint is the only way that the person can "get at" the police officer, who more often than not (in my experience anyway) was merely doing their job correctly.

Therefore, the officer gets dragged through a lengthy discipline process (I know, as I've been the subject of about a dozen - all quashed, btw - AND been to county court as defendant on behalf of the Force) which are some of the most stressful (and potentially damaging) experiences that can be, well, experienced!

And remember... a disciplinary hearing can act on the balance of probabilities... a bit like County court. Not like a magistrates/crown court, where the burden of proof is "beyond all reasonable doubt".... so if they might have done it, or if they possibly or probably did it, then its guilty.... with a fine/suspension/sacking to boot.

So... in a nutshell..... not all are bad, not all should be subject to disciplinary, but IMHO those that do deserve it should be dealt with harshly.

All my own opinion, so please don't shout at the other officers on here.

wakeboardar

have to say not a big fan of the police
but those use scoobynet seem fair to have their share of commom sense

scoobchrissy

iTrader: (1)

I'am not a big lover of the police, but there are some good one's amongst them, like there is some good uns on here,
but if i remember right they only went through some light's on red, correct me if iam wrong, but i think it's a bit harsh myself just my two pence worth.

RichiW

If they had their blues on then they are legally entitled to. If they were off then they're not AFAIK. Whats good for us is good enough for them. What if it had been your wife and kids in the car that went through the lights on green and gets side swiped by them going through on red??

[Edited by RichiW - 1/9/2004 9:08:50 PM]

scoobchrissy

iTrader: (1)

RichiW i did'nt say it was alright for them to go through on red, i ment correct me if iam wrong if it's the same incident, and another thing i think we have all gone through a red light, some time or other, so dont get high and mighty about {what if it was your wife and kids in the car} as that was'nt the point!!!!

-=Buzz=-

erm, no.. I STOP at red lights.

Maybe you should slow down approaching them eh?

boxst

Hello

I never really post on Police threads, but if the Policeperson is at fault then they should have a record.

My wife went in to a policestation to complain about something and ask for help and advice (which was a civil offence apparently) and the Police Officers were incredibly off-hand and when my wife asked for further help, they actually threatened to arrest her. I might add that my wife was 8 months pregnant at the time...

If people behave in such a way and abuse their power then they deserve to have their career blotted and in fact should perhaps reconsider their choice in the first place.

When I heard of this, I was furious and complained to to the Police Complaints commission, the Station and the Chief constable of the area in question. I had several replies, including a phone call from the Chief Constable apologising. We didn't pursue the matter, as my wife would have to be the one to further the complaint.

Steve.

Jye

Police Complaints commission

And what a joke they are. How can you 'police' the police internally?

BTW I've had personal experience of the PCC myself, wish I could find the statistics of complaints compared to prosecutions/reprimands etc, think its something like a <slight exaggeration mode> billion to one against the complainants.

Chris29

The general gist of my reply was that of proportionalty. If anyine else was stopped going through a red ight it would be points and a fine, not points,fine and possibly ruining of career. Complaining is an easy thiing to do and in todays climate there's always someone to listen to you. Just hope it wasn't a knee jerk reaction to something. If it was i just hope the consequences sit well with you.

Again, not a go.

As for police complaints, we are more rigorously investigated than anyone, i know of people required to resign for shouting at a motorist off duty, getting into a scrap (self-defence!). Don't judge till you've been there.

Danbo

How can you possibly quantify the comment of "Police complaints commission, what a joke they are!" ???????????

As said above, any complaint about any of us is investigated in huge detail....however ridiculous the accusation.

Jye

I quantified it by saying that you cannot effectively police your own organisation, especially when that organisation has a vested interest in hiding complaints from members of the public. The police investigating the police, don’t be so naive.

You will be told the investigation is taking place np, what you will never know though is how independent, unbiased or thorough that investigation is. Plenty of other industries have independent regulators and while they are not perfect (allowing MOP's onto them would help) they are better than the PCC were you are almost guaranteed to lose before you start.

Plans for a new Independent PCC have been in place since as early as 2000, and were even included in the Queens speech in 2001. Ask yourself why this isn’t it happening?

I think you've been watching too much of The Bill!

BuRR

I don't watch the Bill. Their detection rate is too high for my liking

Jye

Sorry I just noticed you 'are' the old bill, you probably still watch it though

I have a lot of time for the police and the job they do btw, I work very closely with them on an almost daily basis, this is just my experience of their internal regulation, so no offence intended.

Jye

LOL @ BuRR

Crapaud62

BuRR

I disagree with you on two points. Firstly you assume that complainants are doing it to get back at the police and secondly you assume that most are the result of the complainant being "processed" in some way.

In my case, I witnessed a police driver lock up his brakes and skid over a junction as he was driving very badly. No lights or sirens on and just simple bad driving that very nearly resulted in a bad accident. When I tried to report it to the desk sargeant I was clearly told I would be wasting my time.

I am not anti police. My brother-in-law is in Thames Valley Traffic (Hello Wazza) and I used to be a member of the police social club and play for their snooker team.

I appreciate that you must get many false accusations but it is important to accept the genuine ones to maintain the public confidence.

StickyMicky

i tried complaining about a officer to his boss, and was blatently fobbed off

i followed a panda car up a steep hill from a distance (in a 1.0 litre nova!) and when i got to the top i was pulled over, aperntly i was speeding, this officer was a joke, if the badge was not there i would have smacked him the face, he was rude, abusive, shouting,screaming and genraly acting like a complete arsehole, i recieved 3 penalty points and a nice fine. shortly afterwards.

he was a lonesum (he was by himself) arsehole, his boss was a little better, the whole thing stunk, aperntly i was matching his speed coming up the hill and he was speeding himself, but hes allowed to speed becuase hes on the way to a call (although i see no blue lights and he has time to pull me over for about 20 mins and butt**** me)

i wish i knew about the complaint procedures back then

Jye

Yup SM happens all the time. I was followed for over 6 miles on my motorbike by a traffic car with its full beam on at night, no blues or even flashing, just full beam, I didn’t get pulled over I eventually pulled over myself to ask them wtf they were up to and was then told I had been speeding. I asked what speed I had been doing and was told 60 mph. I told them that it was a 60 mph limit, they then looked at each other stupidly for ages, and then one said 'oh it wasn’t this road' and then wouldn’t tell me which road I had been speeding on as they hadn’t made that bit up yet. Wish I had a bloody dictaphone.

I complained to the PCC, was interviewed once and never heard from them again. It went to court and I got stiffed. They picked the only road I could have came from as the one I was supposedly speeding on, even though they never pulled out to follow me until after I had joined the 60 mph limit.

They both committed perjury in court, were actually caught lying by the judge but asked by the PF to have another 'look at their notes' and then changed their story.

The judge summed it up nicely, he told me that while some of the evidence didn’t 'quite fit' that 'I must accept that he should take the word of two (lying toad) police officer over the word of one (done up like a kipper) joe bloggs.

And then police wonder why the public have no confidence in them, lol

Katana

You got any other sister apart from Shobhna? Just curious.

Wish

iTrader: (2)

A few bad apples in the barrel ???


No ...... A few GOOD apples in the barrel ?

Crapaud62

Katana

No not Shobna.

Wazza is brother of my wife.

Are you in the same branch as him?

You have my sympathy.

Katana

Dude I'm not a cop before these lot lynch me.

BuRR

Crapaud62 ... I'm just speaking from my own experience. I can't offer any comments otherwise.

I've only ever had complaints from people who I have directly been in contact with, and where my actions were something they didn't agree with.

As for the reports that are justified, didn't I say that if found "guilty" then the officers concerned should be dealt with harshly? I thought I did... if not, then that's what I meant.


[Edited by BuRR - 1/10/2004 9:34:40 PM]

damian666

All police officers are treated by the PCC to be guilty until proven innocent.

Often long after the 'victim' of such a complaint has forgotten the event entirely, records of incomplete investifations are stored on an officers record.

Do not feel that you are wasting your time complaining - you are wasting the time of the officer who could be out on the streets? Perhaps this is the reason compaints are avoided by the polcie?

Damian

Crapaud62

OK BuRR

Point taken. I was just equally just stating my own experience as balance to the thread. I accept that there must be many false accusations and I would hate to be on the receiving end of these.

Personally, I prefer the "old school" style of policing where common sense and initiative were allowed rather than the modern rule based politically correct version. That is not a criticism of the police officers but rather of the system imposed by the politicians.