GBH at 13
12 December 2003, 01:00 PM
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Last week (4th Dec) my 13 year old son was playing during school break (play time) with four other children of about the same age.
One of them (not my son) suggested they play the “gate” game.. which is where they play with the big metal gate at the entrance to the school (they’ve done this before.. 3 or four times) one stands on the gate one side and the other pushes him (and the gate) back.. and Then he stands on the gate and the other pushes him back (stupid kid game)
But on this time after all the others had a go it came to my son and ‘fred’ (not his real name)
And after a few times back and forward my son pushed the gate as before.. but this time Fred
Shouted out ‘ouch’ .. my son looked up (he was pushing looking at the floor) and Fred had been backed against the wall behind the gate and was holding the gate top with his wrists flexed back and seemed to have hurt his wrist
With that Fred went off into the school office and that was the last my son saw of him (but he did go to another
Friends for tea and complained that his wrist hurt a bit when hold the fork
On the 16th the police contacted us and we have to take my son to the local police station tomorrow (Saturday) to be arrested for GBH. He’s 13 , 13 ! As fred has broke his wrist
The school have taken statements from the other kids (two have reported that theirs say “it was an accident”) and have told me that the GBH charge is nothing to do with school, Fred will not discuss the situation
With my Son.. but they still talk and play together!
All I can guess is that Fred’s mother (there does not seem to be a dad) is pushing for compensation and
The GBH charge is to make things look better for Fred
Comments please
We are going out of our minds here, we are not sleeping or eating really, we are trying to make things ‘look good’ for our son.. but we are worried sick
To us it was a stupid kid game that went a bit wrong, if it had happened to our son yes we would have been mad .. but to report it to the police as GBH !!! never
One of them (not my son) suggested they play the “gate” game.. which is where they play with the big metal gate at the entrance to the school (they’ve done this before.. 3 or four times) one stands on the gate one side and the other pushes him (and the gate) back.. and Then he stands on the gate and the other pushes him back (stupid kid game)
But on this time after all the others had a go it came to my son and ‘fred’ (not his real name)
And after a few times back and forward my son pushed the gate as before.. but this time Fred
Shouted out ‘ouch’ .. my son looked up (he was pushing looking at the floor) and Fred had been backed against the wall behind the gate and was holding the gate top with his wrists flexed back and seemed to have hurt his wrist
With that Fred went off into the school office and that was the last my son saw of him (but he did go to another
Friends for tea and complained that his wrist hurt a bit when hold the fork
On the 16th the police contacted us and we have to take my son to the local police station tomorrow (Saturday) to be arrested for GBH. He’s 13 , 13 ! As fred has broke his wrist
The school have taken statements from the other kids (two have reported that theirs say “it was an accident”) and have told me that the GBH charge is nothing to do with school, Fred will not discuss the situation
With my Son.. but they still talk and play together!
All I can guess is that Fred’s mother (there does not seem to be a dad) is pushing for compensation and
The GBH charge is to make things look better for Fred
Comments please
We are going out of our minds here, we are not sleeping or eating really, we are trying to make things ‘look good’ for our son.. but we are worried sick
To us it was a stupid kid game that went a bit wrong, if it had happened to our son yes we would have been mad .. but to report it to the police as GBH !!! never
12 December 2003, 01:05 PM
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This all seems a little extreme to me.
I assume the kids have been warned by teachers at the school not to do this as it maybe dangerous.
The same thing happened to me a school (more than a few years ago now of course) where I was doing somersaults over a bar which we had been told not to do on several occasions but me being a bit of a rebel did it any way.
I fell off and next thing I know I am in my Mum's car being taken to Kingston Hospital because I have broken my nose, my parents never even thought about claiming compensation from the school, it was my fault as I was doing soemthing that I had been told not to.
I assume the kids have been warned by teachers at the school not to do this as it maybe dangerous.
The same thing happened to me a school (more than a few years ago now of course) where I was doing somersaults over a bar which we had been told not to do on several occasions but me being a bit of a rebel did it any way.
I fell off and next thing I know I am in my Mum's car being taken to Kingston Hospital because I have broken my nose, my parents never even thought about claiming compensation from the school, it was my fault as I was doing soemthing that I had been told not to.
12 December 2003, 01:16 PM
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I think you are victim to the new 'ethical crime recording' issues which came in recently mate. Whereas before if someone rang the police and when we got there they decided that no crime had taken place or the 'victim' wanted nothing to do with prosecution we could just get a signature in a pocket notebook and that would be that. Now, in an effort yo show 'a true reflection of crime' even if the victim wants nothing to do with the police, if there is a reasonable belief that an offence has occured we are now duty bound to put in a crime and make investigations (due to nature of incident an assault in the strictest terms has occured). Hence the ridiculous situation where we find a car with no pnc keeper which has been damaged (by who knows who and god knows when?) and no witnesses. Before a note would suffice but now we have to put in a crime of criminal damage and investigate, knowing full well nothing will ever come of it!!
What i'm saying is that this kids parents have probably had him come home saying your son hurt him (as kids do) and a knee jerk reaction is to call police. As the injury falls into that of a section 20 assault that is what it is crimed as. As he named an 'offender' that is why your son has been asked to go to the station. Schools can't take statements and should know better, it's up to police to do this as we know what we're after.
When you do go to the station its only fair to tell you your son will be formally arrested and cautioned, as appropriate adult you are there to counter sign anything that needs signing. He will then be interviewed on tape, just let him tell the truth, don't jump in with 'tell him about' let the interview take its course.
If what you say happened happended then any self respecting officer will see it as an accident and deal with it as such.
If you have any problems at the station speak to the custody sergeant and remember part of your sons rights and entitlements as explained when you get there is to speak to, on the phone or in person a solicitor free of charge, if you feel the need make use of this, it is in no way an admission in any way and certainly in my station is not seen as such.
What i'm saying is that this kids parents have probably had him come home saying your son hurt him (as kids do) and a knee jerk reaction is to call police. As the injury falls into that of a section 20 assault that is what it is crimed as. As he named an 'offender' that is why your son has been asked to go to the station. Schools can't take statements and should know better, it's up to police to do this as we know what we're after.
When you do go to the station its only fair to tell you your son will be formally arrested and cautioned, as appropriate adult you are there to counter sign anything that needs signing. He will then be interviewed on tape, just let him tell the truth, don't jump in with 'tell him about' let the interview take its course.
If what you say happened happended then any self respecting officer will see it as an accident and deal with it as such.
If you have any problems at the station speak to the custody sergeant and remember part of your sons rights and entitlements as explained when you get there is to speak to, on the phone or in person a solicitor free of charge, if you feel the need make use of this, it is in no way an admission in any way and certainly in my station is not seen as such.
12 December 2003, 01:23 PM
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If as you suppose it is the mother who is behind this I still can't see how the police can call you up and tell yout they are going to arrest your son based on the evidence of someone who wasn't there and 'Fred' who obviously isn't that bothered as he still plays with your son.
I can see how they could ask you to briung him in for questioning after which they will hopefully drop the case.
If they are to arrest him what grounds do they have for this?
Any chance the police on this board could shed some light on what might be going on here as frankly it sounds ludicrous.
tiggers.
I can see how they could ask you to briung him in for questioning after which they will hopefully drop the case.
If they are to arrest him what grounds do they have for this?
Any chance the police on this board could shed some light on what might be going on here as frankly it sounds ludicrous.
tiggers.
12 December 2003, 01:23 PM
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Welcome to the year 2003. If its any consolation it will be worse in another 50 years and you can look back and wonder how and why the world became such a pathetic place to live 
12 December 2003, 01:25 PM
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Chris,
You're one step ahead of me - I need to learn to type more quickly.
I am, however, astounded by your post - as Luke said that's the UK for you - the place has gone stark raving mad.
tiggers.
You're one step ahead of me - I need to learn to type more quickly.
I am, however, astounded by your post - as Luke said that's the UK for you - the place has gone stark raving mad.
tiggers.
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12 December 2003, 01:28 PM
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I can't believe what an Irresponsible father you've been!! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] You should have kept your son at home in front of the playstation and made sure he was eating his pizza, crisps and fizzy drink!! What sort of self respecting parent lets their kids 'play' outside in this day and age!
12 December 2003, 01:31 PM
#10
Now british bulldog was the game we played on concrete!, could get seriously hurt playing that. Had to catch people and get them on the floor by any means neccesary 
the injuries i used to get from that. Never took anyone to court once.
the injuries i used to get from that. Never took anyone to court once.
12 December 2003, 01:34 PM
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Ground for arrest.
If a police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect a person has commited an arrestable offence he can, without warrant, arrest that person. (Wording not perfect, been a while since i looked at me books!!)
An offence (as such) has occured, i.e. a section 20 assault which is an arrestable offence.
The Police Codes of Practice 1984 (the much talked about PACE) states that for an officer to question anyone about an offence that person must be cautioned, given his/her rights, allowed access to legal representation and interviewed on tape at a correctly designated place, ie police station. Again, a potted version to keep things simple.
Arrest is not a big deal. It is a means of making what we need to do, ie talk to someone, more compelling and helps us get our job done. This child will not be thrown in a cell by himself, hopefully sense will prevail and it will go straight to interview.
We have to do things correctly, i agree a word with all parties would probably sort it out but what happens down the line when mum decides she wants some cash and it comes out that this lad wasn't questionned correctly. Another headline for the papers.
I agree this situation is odd, but with all due respect we only have one side of the story and assault can be committed Intentionally OR Recklessly, which, in this case may have happened.
It's unlikely a child with no previous (i'm presuming?) offences will go to jail or be fined, there are other means of dealing which are just as effective, however not being involved and again not knowing the full facts i would not like to predjudice any ongoing proceedings.
If a police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect a person has commited an arrestable offence he can, without warrant, arrest that person. (Wording not perfect, been a while since i looked at me books!!)
An offence (as such) has occured, i.e. a section 20 assault which is an arrestable offence.
The Police Codes of Practice 1984 (the much talked about PACE) states that for an officer to question anyone about an offence that person must be cautioned, given his/her rights, allowed access to legal representation and interviewed on tape at a correctly designated place, ie police station. Again, a potted version to keep things simple.
Arrest is not a big deal. It is a means of making what we need to do, ie talk to someone, more compelling and helps us get our job done. This child will not be thrown in a cell by himself, hopefully sense will prevail and it will go straight to interview.
We have to do things correctly, i agree a word with all parties would probably sort it out but what happens down the line when mum decides she wants some cash and it comes out that this lad wasn't questionned correctly. Another headline for the papers.
I agree this situation is odd, but with all due respect we only have one side of the story and assault can be committed Intentionally OR Recklessly, which, in this case may have happened.
It's unlikely a child with no previous (i'm presuming?) offences will go to jail or be fined, there are other means of dealing which are just as effective, however not being involved and again not knowing the full facts i would not like to predjudice any ongoing proceedings.
12 December 2003, 01:37 PM
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Would it not be advisable to get leagal advise from a soliciter and have him present for the interview?
Sue culture is taking hold in the UK its gonna be as bad as the US soon, did you hear about the woman who sued a furniture store beacuse broke her arm when she tripped over a Kid who was running round the store?
She reckoned the store should have taken responsabilty for the kid running rampant even tho it was her KID.
Sue culture is taking hold in the UK its gonna be as bad as the US soon, did you hear about the woman who sued a furniture store beacuse broke her arm when she tripped over a Kid who was running round the store?
She reckoned the store should have taken responsabilty for the kid running rampant even tho it was her KID.
12 December 2003, 01:39 PM
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Chris,
Thanks for that and (for once
) I wasn't having a dig at the police - just astounded at the laws and code of practice you have to follow for a case like this.
tiggers.
Thanks for that and (for once
) I wasn't having a dig at the police - just astounded at the laws and code of practice you have to follow for a case like this.tiggers.
12 December 2003, 01:42 PM
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WTF!!! its the sort of things kid every day in the 80s and even early 90's and when they got hurt they got on with it... didnt give two hoots, my best mate at aged 11 hit me on the head with a brick whilst I was cycling past him (yes OK well fell out for a day over something small lmao) cut my head open etc no1 pressed charges we made up the week after... look what you get now, the world is 1 screwed up place 
12 December 2003, 01:47 PM
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Tiggers,
You and me both mate, the whole things crazy, i spend my time looking for non-existant crime to record cus someone thinks they heard a gun-shot (firework) while old people are getting duffed up!
Perhaps now you understand why i get arsy when people have a dig at us?
Krade,
Part of the rights and entitlements whilst in police custody are to speak to or have present a solicitor, free of charge. Course they can sit in on interview, in fact we do what's called disclosure before hand, what that means is we go into a room with them and give them a run down of the job, what we have, what happened etc. They then get chance to privately consult with their client to discuss the matter and make up a story, ahem, i meant discuss what really happened!!! Seriously though, these are not cheap stand by solicitors, these are proper defence solicitors on call 24 hours a day for these circumstances. I know a few and they are good at what they do.
You and me both mate, the whole things crazy, i spend my time looking for non-existant crime to record cus someone thinks they heard a gun-shot (firework) while old people are getting duffed up!
Perhaps now you understand why i get arsy when people have a dig at us?
Krade,
Part of the rights and entitlements whilst in police custody are to speak to or have present a solicitor, free of charge. Course they can sit in on interview, in fact we do what's called disclosure before hand, what that means is we go into a room with them and give them a run down of the job, what we have, what happened etc. They then get chance to privately consult with their client to discuss the matter and make up a story, ahem, i meant discuss what really happened!!! Seriously though, these are not cheap stand by solicitors, these are proper defence solicitors on call 24 hours a day for these circumstances. I know a few and they are good at what they do.
12 December 2003, 02:15 PM
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Yeah I remember when I was about 13, my mate was pushing me through the snow on a tray, as he pushed I fell off and fractured my arm.
On another occasion I was playing football and was in goal, someone kicked the ball too hard and I doslocated my little finger.
Fortunately on both occasions my Mum called the police. The guilty parties were both charged with GBH and each did a 3 stretch in a borstal!!! My AR*E!!!
Kids have accidents end of, I have to say that if this is the kind of thing police are having to deal with because of the ridiculous state of the law in this country, then it's little wonder the kids who set fire to my neighbours garden are running around scot free!
Dave
On another occasion I was playing football and was in goal, someone kicked the ball too hard and I doslocated my little finger.
Fortunately on both occasions my Mum called the police. The guilty parties were both charged with GBH and each did a 3 stretch in a borstal!!! My AR*E!!!
Kids have accidents end of, I have to say that if this is the kind of thing police are having to deal with because of the ridiculous state of the law in this country, then it's little wonder the kids who set fire to my neighbours garden are running around scot free!
Dave
12 December 2003, 03:38 PM
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I expect when they bring this daft law in prohibiting physical contact between boys and girls we will start to see kids being charged with sexual assault for kissing their girlfriend too! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
12 December 2003, 03:44 PM
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when i was a kid we played british bulldog en mass. it was ace about 80 kids charging across a playground.
got banned tho
just before all this PC crap.
whos up for british bulldog?
got banned tho
just before all this PC crap.
whos up for british bulldog?
12 December 2003, 03:58 PM
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BUUULLLDOOOOOGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously though, I think it's sheer madness that she mother of 'Fred' has (presumably) gone to the Police.
If a minor gets arrested but later released won't this be on a record for ever and hence, affect job chances etc. I rememberapplying for jobs that asked if I had a criminal record (I don't).
Not sure what good it would do, but have you though about going to your local/national newspaper?
[Edited by Goochie - 12/12/2003 3:58:51 PM]
Seriously though, I think it's sheer madness that she mother of 'Fred' has (presumably) gone to the Police.
If a minor gets arrested but later released won't this be on a record for ever and hence, affect job chances etc. I rememberapplying for jobs that asked if I had a criminal record (I don't).
Not sure what good it would do, but have you though about going to your local/national newspaper?
[Edited by Goochie - 12/12/2003 3:58:51 PM]
15 December 2003, 10:33 AM
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Well an update on what happened when I took my son to be arrested
After the PC uttered those heart breaking words “I arrest you on the suspicion of GBH” he left the room for a few minutes, when he came back he said the following
“Well I’ve just reviewed the video evidence from ‘fred’ .. and his statement is completely useless, it says very little more than we were both playing and I got hurt, no WHERE did it happen, WHO did what to who or even WHICH bit got hurt.
Based on that I should not have arrested you.. but it’s a bit late now its done so would you like to make a statement now you are here?” (easy to say isn’t it!)
So there was no real statement from ‘fred’ on which to base an arrest
We made a statement/interview (apparently there is a big difference in police terms)
Which was recorded, at the end the PC was keen to write off the whole thing as ‘no action’ but because we had mentioned the 3 or 4 witnesses they have to interview them first
So on the plus side it looks as if it will all be dropped (but it might be hanging over us at xmass), but on the minus side it should never have happened
Our solicitor is concerned that the police used a video interview of the other child.. which is something that normally only happens to vulnerable people so perhaps the other child is in care/fostered/under a court order
I’m taking the view that if it all goes away then I’ll take things no further.. but we could have a possible case for wrongful arrest/unlawful detention
After the PC uttered those heart breaking words “I arrest you on the suspicion of GBH” he left the room for a few minutes, when he came back he said the following
“Well I’ve just reviewed the video evidence from ‘fred’ .. and his statement is completely useless, it says very little more than we were both playing and I got hurt, no WHERE did it happen, WHO did what to who or even WHICH bit got hurt.
Based on that I should not have arrested you.. but it’s a bit late now its done so would you like to make a statement now you are here?” (easy to say isn’t it!)
So there was no real statement from ‘fred’ on which to base an arrest
We made a statement/interview (apparently there is a big difference in police terms)
Which was recorded, at the end the PC was keen to write off the whole thing as ‘no action’ but because we had mentioned the 3 or 4 witnesses they have to interview them first
So on the plus side it looks as if it will all be dropped (but it might be hanging over us at xmass), but on the minus side it should never have happened
Our solicitor is concerned that the police used a video interview of the other child.. which is something that normally only happens to vulnerable people so perhaps the other child is in care/fostered/under a court order
I’m taking the view that if it all goes away then I’ll take things no further.. but we could have a possible case for wrongful arrest/unlawful detention
15 December 2003, 10:49 AM
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You must be very pleased, could have been much worse.
I think that taking things further could end up more hassle/worry than it would be worth. You've got to consider that it is the kid/mother/fosterer etc. that is the route cause of this and not the police.
I think that taking things further could end up more hassle/worry than it would be worth. You've got to consider that it is the kid/mother/fosterer etc. that is the route cause of this and not the police.
15 December 2003, 11:28 AM
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Glad hear it all turned out good, at least you can have a happy Chrimbo with none of this hanging over you.
If it was me I'd let bygones be bygones, No point in giving anyone else a load of Grief and worry, but if Fred ever come to play then I'd make sure we had CCTV all over the house
[Edited by Krade - 12/15/2003 11:29:12 AM]
If it was me I'd let bygones be bygones, No point in giving anyone else a load of Grief and worry, but if Fred ever come to play then I'd make sure we had CCTV all over the house
[Edited by Krade - 12/15/2003 11:29:12 AM]
15 December 2003, 12:49 PM
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Our solicitor is concerned that the police used a video interview of the other child.. which is something that normally only happens to vulnerable people so perhaps the other child is in care/fostered/under a court order
As said before if a complaint is made, no matter how daft it is, we are obliged to investigate fully. Even if it is to confirm that it is indeed a crock of ****e.
Nathan..
15 December 2003, 01:08 PM
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Sad state of affairs...
whatever happend to discretion and common sense??
I see the logic that the incident must be investigated , but does arresting a minor actually achieve the desired result...
as anon_dad states "those heart breaking words" i can understand just how he feels...
what did it acheive?? if as stated the original evidence was unsuitable, what was the purpose of the arrest??? surley the officers investigating the case should have seen this prior to your son arriving...
i cant comment for for the full case, as we only have one side of the evidence so to speak.
as others have stated it appears to be a PC world!!!
Mart
whatever happend to discretion and common sense??
I see the logic that the incident must be investigated , but does arresting a minor actually achieve the desired result...
as anon_dad states "those heart breaking words" i can understand just how he feels...
what did it acheive?? if as stated the original evidence was unsuitable, what was the purpose of the arrest??? surley the officers investigating the case should have seen this prior to your son arriving...
i cant comment for for the full case, as we only have one side of the evidence so to speak.
as others have stated it appears to be a PC world!!!
Mart