druddle

This is a heads up so no one else will hopefully get stung by something like this.

Brother in law runs his own very successsful sound and lighting company. He has recently been responsible for a refit of a club in Rotherham, Yorkshire, which had very tight timescales.

All of the normal checks were done by his accountants and the customer was sound. His company has carried out the work, and invoiced the job. 30 days later no money.....

It transpires that the "customer" has sold the venue to someone else and done it in such a way so that the equipment inside cannot be touched by anyone except the new owners. The International and English Fraud Squads are on the case and say thet he (and others) have been the victims of a massive, very well orchestrated fraud. They are looking into it and hope to get to the bottom of it, and then maybe my brother in law will get some money back. His company that he has spent 15 years building will hopefully survive.

To let you know the extent of the fraud, well you could buy 3 Impreza Spec C's off Iain Litchfield and a Street Ka and you would still have a few quid change

I guess its another reason to trust absolutely no-one anymore.

Dave

Luke

Doesnt make sense..... Until the goods are paid for they belong to your brother inlaw.

I mentioned in a thread many months ago about a fitter who would attach little hidden timers.Some remote control. if no pay then the stuff wouldnt work after a set time or been turned iff from the remote. he is fitting them to many Plasmas etc that are rented out etc.

druddle

I dont know many details but the Fraud Squad have told him it has been done iin such a way that if he gained entry to reposess the gear he would be trespassing and commiting theft. I dont know how but there we go.

Computer sound and video processing gear all has timers on it.

Dave

Freak

As the goods didnt actually belong to the club when it was sold (as in- goods remain the title of the the company until they are payed for) they shouldnt be in the inventory in the club when it was sold..

theoretically he can walk in and remove them....

but thats theoretically, and not when loads of doormen are present......

Luke

I would arrange for it all to be stolen.

Brendan Hughes

Interesting property law question. Hypothetically, from a purely academic legal point of view, if the club burned down, could he claim on some sort of insurance for his property inside it and thus recoup the cost?

ajm

I would love to know how they managed to sell stolen goods legally!!! To my mind the contract of sale of the property should be null and void?

druddle

Fraud squad have advised he doesnt go in and get the gear as it will compromise their operation and he could be prosecuted if found out [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Diablo

Not the case Luke. Title passes on delivery, not on payment unless the seller and the buyer are in contractual agreement before delivery that title will only pass on payment.

Ditto above. Unless title was contractually retained, the goods would have belonged to the purchaser regardless of whether paid or not - the purchaser could then give clear title to the ultimate owner of the club.

Only if fraud is proven.

Druddle, leaving aside the fraud element, does your brother have retention of title in his contract?

If so, although, yess, he would be trespassing to enter the premises, he will, regardless of the outcome of the fraud investigation have a legal right to their eventual return.

D

beemerboy

Sorry to hear about this.

I am always worried about being knocked, but you do have to chance a few things in life.

Hope he gets a quick, good resolve to the situation.
(preferably involving shooters)

BB

Diablo

Oh, and do not for one minute assume the Fraud Squad will have anything more than a passing knowledge of any of this.

When we report a fraud in the course of business recovery work, we end up having to do most of the work for the police in demonstrating that the fraud has taken place.

They know the criminal law as far as what is "intent" but they don't always know the civil law.

Luke

Diablo

quote:
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Doesnt make sense..... Until the goods are paid for they belong to your brother inlaw.
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Not the case Luke. Title passes on delivery, not on payment unless the seller and the buyer are in contractual agreement before delivery that title will only pass on payment.



I refer you to: Hackney Crown kangeroo Court. June 2002. Judge Dread ordered Pikey to return goods or be shot.....



You know your stuff far better than me. Would have thought any contract would have included title details etc....

Was the new Buyer part of the Scam.... its been done before.

MJW

This sort of thing happens all the time in the building trade, although its not so much called fraud as standard practice. We recently invoiced approx £20k of materials we fitted to a job in Hull (the new BBC HQ), and Ballast Construction had their contract terminated (ie. they were kicked off the job by the client for being behind programme, and subsequently went t1ts-up). We cannot recover our materials as the building is now in the hands of another contractor. And the client has more or less told us to f**k off with regard to being paid. So anybody out there dealing with Manor Properties, please give them a kick in the b***ocks from me.

This sounds like a similar case in that the subcontractor carries all the risks both technical and financial, yet the firms with the burgeoning coffers always win the legal cases. Your brother in law will just have to fight on and try to trade out of it.

[edit] the title of goods, and any retention of title claim you state on your invoices / claims for payment does not mean jack **** in court if the materials have been installed.

[Edited by MJW - 12/10/2003 12:11:49 PM]

Diablo

Luke,

Agreed they should, but you'd be surprised how many either don't retain title contractually at all, or think they do, when its not actually the case.

Dave P

A lot to be said for Escrow accounts.

Dave

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I think perhaps it might be time for the seller to have a meeting with Mr. Bat, and Dr. Marten?:

Alcazar

TaviaRS

<Sorry for thread hijack>

How is this different to people buying stolen cars and then having them taken back by the finance companies?

TopBanana

I'd personally take a lock-smith, a couple of vans, and a load of lads down there and take the stuff back. Sod the trespassing charge, this is £80k we're talking about

chiark

Personal opinion: it almost sounds like the issue is the potential damage to the fraud prosecution is uppermost in the minds of people whose advice your Bro in law has taken...

tonybooth

MJW

Is that the Manor Properties based in Lincoln?

TONY

Luke

Are both parties involded in the fraud?? ie the seller and the buyer

Spoon

Edited because it need not hang around.

[Edited by Spoon - 12/11/2003 11:52:47 AM]