Apparition

Quiet sunday morning in our village....... sound of sirens coming from a distance, some time after which, a patrol car appears NOT going very fast , with the blues and twos in full chorus.
Now forgive me if I'm starting something here, but is there not some sort of rule to direct when this racket is essential ?
From what I could tell, the roads were clear, it was a bright sunny day, no frost, no pedestrians about and the police car was seemingly in no great hurry..... I'm baffled.
It also drives me nuts when I hear the sirens going in the early hours of the morning .... are they always necessary ?

Goochie

What drives me nuts is Traffic cars speeding without blues and twos.

kend

It's often to do with road layout etc. If driving on a perfectly straght road with no other traffic and good visibility ahead.then sirens often aren't needed, but if coming towards a blind junction then they may be. The sirens aren't always used to get people out of the way, often it's to warn people potentially approaching the same junction.
As for speed, the usual teaching is that response drivers should always be able to stop the car in the distance that they can see to be clear, on their own side of the road. This can mean driving quite slowly in villages, with lots of bends, if you can't see what's around the corner.

Scooby96

Probably late for breakfast....

iDLe*

Thats a big ten four on the hash browns, over.

Apparition

LOL...... thank you for the explanation, I had a feeling it was something that simple and obvious, but I still reckon they do it for show sometimes !

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I live near a fairly dangerous junction.
The only service that ALWAYS uses the lights/sirens, even in the early hours of sunday morning, is the fire service!

I think it's a macho thing:
Alcazar

Felix.

Not really, cos it can be a racket inside the car. Officers will drive at the speed they think safe and fit. If the wheel falls of and there is a bump the first thing that will be asked is why weren't the sirens on.

DAC

steering wheel on me **** drives my nuts


"breakfast ready - 10/4 over and owt"

lmsbman

I am a Police Advanced Driving Instructor so I think I can lay to bed a few myths about Police driving.

Firstly, drivers are taught that no call justifies putting your own or others life at risk. The consequences for a Police Officer having a crash are far more severe than the average member of the public. Certainly in my force area, the officer will have to justify their actions and if there is any evidence of dangerous or careless driving, they will be prosecuted. Police driving is quite rightly under close public scrutiny and officers will be treated harshly if they are found to be at fault.

As far as using 'blues & two's', all calls are graded for a level of response. Only the highest level of response permits the use of warning instruments. I teach my students to use blue lights if they feel it nescessary to exceed the speed limit. The use of sirens depends upon the situation. However, I teach my students not to overuse them, because of the comments seen on this thread and others. Through over use the public tends to 'get used' to them and take no notice. By restricting their use, their effect can be much more dramatic.

With regard to Police cars speeding without lights, there are sometimes genuine reasons for this. For instance, if I get called to a crime taking place, the last thing I want to do is advertise to the criminals that I am on my way. However, there are no doubt other occasions when Police drivers exceed the speed limit for no reason. All I can say is if they get caught by cameras or lasers they have to be able to justify their speed, if they can't they will be prosecuted. I teach my students to observe all speed limits because we are their to lead by example. I like most of you get annoyed by poor levels of Police Driving.

On another thread comments were made about standards of driving by unmarked 'CID' cars. Obviously I don't know the circumstances, but one reason for cars overtaking in the manner that they did, is that they are on a covert follow of a car. Without giving too many tactics away, there are occasions when a car has to make ground in order to try and get ahead of the target. This results in officers queue jumping etc. Once again, if they cause an accident then they will be investigated.

In conclusion, I would say that if you see a poor example of Police Driving, take down the reg number of the car and any other cars you think might have witnessed it, then write a letter of complaint to the local Police Divisional Commander. I assure you that it will be investigated thoroughly.

MartinM

Great response ... and interesting as well

Wish

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the response, always nice to here from someone the other side of the fence.

Just one thing regarding the above statement......... I thought that all registration numbers are fed in to a computer and then tagged with the 'emergency vehicle' label, therefore the computer database will not issue a ticket for cameras ????

Is this not correct ?

RON

I saw a Police car the other day, he was approaching a set of traffic lights, put the lights and horns on, then after he'd gone through the lights, he switched the lot off, if he'd left the lights on I could understand, but he didn't, is that legal or not??

Ron.

lmsbman

I can only comment on my force and the answer is no. If I get caught on camera I get the paperwork sent to me. I then have to provide documentary evidence of what I was going to, in order to justify my speed. If I can't, then I get prosecuted!

Daz34

He may have been going to a call that asked for a silent fast approach i.e. suicide attempt

Sirens can also be used to alert people that help is on the way. If you are trapped in a bedroom & your **** is on fire I have been told it is quite reassuring to hear the emergency services coming

Daz34

Not true

talizman

iTrader: (1)

I can second Imsbman's comments wholeheartedly.

I can personally vouch for this, as I was charged with a contravention of Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Careless driving) as a result of circumstances in which a civilian would NEVER have been charged.

We, as police drivers have much more expected of us by our respective Force's, rightly or wrongly, than the average civilian driver.

With regards to the blues and twos question....

If I am driving to a call, which requires my attendance sooner than "normal patrol speed" but doesn't quite qualify as an "emergency call" then I will normally drive with the blue lights only, to allow other motorist to see that I am driving faster than is perhaps permitted, but for a reason.

When the call ascends to "emergency" status I will engage the vehicle's klaxons at junctions, overtakes, areas of pedestrian activity etc etc. The idea being that you should be seen AND heard so as others can allow you to pass safely.

If however, I am going to a housebreaking, or a robbery etc, the last thing I want the perpetrator to know is, "oh, here comes plod, lets leg it".

For this reason, a silent approach is advisable where circumstances permit. This does not mean taking un-neccessary risks to avoid being heard by the criminal however.

As for the engaging the blues and twos to go through reds and then turn them off.....
I would do this if I were attending a call that requires PROMPT attendance but not emergency status, for example, a non-injury road accident or to provide transport to a foot patrol officer with an apprehension. The reason for this is simply, that blues and twos would be considered "OTT" but you still have to get there as soon as practicable, so running reds would be justified providing you let other cars and pedestrians know your intentions by means of the blues and twos.

My point is, 99% of the time, a police officer will have good reason to be carrying out his particular actions. Driving at speed with NO klaxons IS required sometimes unfortunately.

For the other 1%....

Well, do you like cold chips?





Only kidding! before I get flamed!

talizman

iTrader: (1)

BTW,

The Fire Service seem to be the ones who switch on their blues and twos and don't touch them again until they get to their call..... regardless of time of day or traffic conditions.

Perhaps it must be Fire Service policy? maybe a Fireman can advise us?

I know that when 50,000 gallons of water crash at 60mph in a 30mph, you'd want to be able to say you had ALL warning instruments on!

As for the registration numbers of Police Vehicles being "tagged".... not the case.

Each car is registered to "The Chief Constable, Strathclyde Police etc etc" so it is immediately obvious that it is a polcie vehicle.

What happens is, the ticket is forwarded to the divison/area concerned and enquiries must be made to ascertain which officer was driving the car at the given time.

If he can justify his actions (i.e. for a police purpose) the ticket is waived.

If he cannot... HE or SHE pays it and cops the point if applicable.

[Edited by talizman - 12/8/2003 11:50:36 PM]

Daz34

I do think it is strange that regular police patrol cars are fitted with beacons but no sirens.

I like the sound of dutch/french emergency service sirens. very musical

Little Miss WRX

Great responses there, thank you!

Certainly cleared up a few queries that I had too.

BuRR

Just as a side note.....

...I watched Terminator 3 last night. I thought the police bike that Arnie "borrows" just after they leave the vets had a kids' space ray-gun strapped to the top!

Surely, that's not meant to represent a REAL police motorbike siren!!!

I enjoyed the film though

talizman

iTrader: (1)

You woudn't believe some of the poor-excuse-for-sirens we've had over the years......

Does anyone remember Ecto 1, the Ghostbusters car?

We had a Ford Escort back in 97 that sounded EXACTLY like Ecto 1.

We used to avoid putting it on if we could! lol

Folk didn't realise what it was anyway, so it was as much use as a chocolate watch!

PG

As mentioned the $hit load of water sitting in the rear of the wagon and the fact it takes a lot to stop circ. 15 tons may have something to do with it.
It is entierly left to the drivers discression as to when the tones should be used as they are the ones in control of the vehicle and it is their neck that is on the line come smash time. ATM in a "A" class area (city centre) we have 5 mins to get where we are going as everything is timed.
HTH.
PS. Shouldnt worry about that tho, there will prob be a lot less fire appliances on the road once the Govt finish picking the service to bits.

RON

I used to be a firefighter, and can honestly say that there is no policy whereby the horns stay on ALL the time, lights yes, but not horns, that's up to the driver and OIC to decide, on Dorset's wagons either can operate the horns!

Ron.

jaf01uk

Cant really add anything to the above but the ambulance service sop on reacting to emergency calls is that all warning systems are used at all times but the conditions are assessed on each call and discretion used to avoid waking everyone at night (blues are usually observed before a siren would be heard)
The speed cameras issue is the same with us in that HQ get the ticket and the ops room has to provide details of the job to justify the claiming of the speeding exemption,
PS. Our local Trumpton are infamous for their indescriminate use of warning systems to the point of being silly, must be cause they dont get out much! Lol

jaf01uk

Meant to add that Grampian based in Elgin must have somekind of competition to see how many different sirens they can get on one motor - two tones , electronic siren, bullhorn and of course all on at the same time!!

And dont get me started on driver training

Katana

Hmm PG the only other group that the venerable pslewis hates more than the police are firemen. Expect a few potshots from the old hairdresser in the future.

Daz34

Yeah. Imagine if Fire engines had gold wheels

Katana

Or was moded slightly.

PG

I have chatted to Pete re my work in the past