End of the GB rally?
11 November 2003, 11:32 PM
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FIA cast doubt on Rally of Britain
Tue 11 November, 2003 17:59
By Alan Baldwin
LONDON (Reuters) - Motorsport's world governing body has questioned the Rally of Britain's future after top drivers were fined for speeding on public roads during last year's event.
"Road safety is a matter of the utmost importance to the FIA," a spokesman for the International Automobile Federation said on Tuesday after a magistrates court fined four former champions on Monday.
The targeting of 17 rally drivers, including former champions Colin McRae and Richard Burns of Britain along with Spain's Carlos Sainz and Finland's Tommi Makinen, made front page news.
"The actions of the police and magistrates seem to indicate that this is an exceptionally dangerous location for a rally," said the FIA spokesman.
"The FIA has therefore asked its safety delegate for a report on the suitability of the local public roads for a World Championship event."
The rally, which is due to move from its season-ending November slot to September next year, is sponsored by the Welsh Development Agency for the next three years. The 2003 event finished on Sunday.
The timed special stages in south and central Wales are held on Forestry Commission land but drivers have to use public roads and motorways to get to them from the service park and rally headquarters.
Belgian Freddy Loix was fined 1,750 pounds and banned for six months from driving in Britain after being caught seven times in just one morning.
Germany's Armin Schwarz was also banned for six months and fined 1,000 pounds while McRae and Burns were both fined 150 pounds.
"The area where these offences happened is particularly dangerous for people to exceed the speed limit under any circumstances," media quoted magistrates chairman Cliff Jones as saying.
The rally is confirmed for 2004. But it has been investigated by the FIA's safety delegate before and was initially listed on the 2003 calendar as provisional pending an observer's report into spectator safety.
Thirteen people, mostly volunteer marshals, were hurt when Sainz's car went into the crowd in the 2001 rally.
Finland's Marcus Gronholm also criticised what he saw as heavy-handed policing on this year's event after being forced to retire by officers who would not allow him to continue on public roads in his damaged Peugeot.
"An escort service might have been a better solution," said the 2000 and 2002 world champion.
Tue 11 November, 2003 17:59
By Alan Baldwin
LONDON (Reuters) - Motorsport's world governing body has questioned the Rally of Britain's future after top drivers were fined for speeding on public roads during last year's event.
"Road safety is a matter of the utmost importance to the FIA," a spokesman for the International Automobile Federation said on Tuesday after a magistrates court fined four former champions on Monday.
The targeting of 17 rally drivers, including former champions Colin McRae and Richard Burns of Britain along with Spain's Carlos Sainz and Finland's Tommi Makinen, made front page news.
"The actions of the police and magistrates seem to indicate that this is an exceptionally dangerous location for a rally," said the FIA spokesman.
"The FIA has therefore asked its safety delegate for a report on the suitability of the local public roads for a World Championship event."
The rally, which is due to move from its season-ending November slot to September next year, is sponsored by the Welsh Development Agency for the next three years. The 2003 event finished on Sunday.
The timed special stages in south and central Wales are held on Forestry Commission land but drivers have to use public roads and motorways to get to them from the service park and rally headquarters.
Belgian Freddy Loix was fined 1,750 pounds and banned for six months from driving in Britain after being caught seven times in just one morning.
Germany's Armin Schwarz was also banned for six months and fined 1,000 pounds while McRae and Burns were both fined 150 pounds.
"The area where these offences happened is particularly dangerous for people to exceed the speed limit under any circumstances," media quoted magistrates chairman Cliff Jones as saying.
The rally is confirmed for 2004. But it has been investigated by the FIA's safety delegate before and was initially listed on the 2003 calendar as provisional pending an observer's report into spectator safety.
Thirteen people, mostly volunteer marshals, were hurt when Sainz's car went into the crowd in the 2001 rally.
Finland's Marcus Gronholm also criticised what he saw as heavy-handed policing on this year's event after being forced to retire by officers who would not allow him to continue on public roads in his damaged Peugeot.
"An escort service might have been a better solution," said the 2000 and 2002 world champion.
Looks like the FIA are a bit pissed off
11 November 2003, 11:55 PM
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Yeap can't have that many people being attracted to such a deathtrap of a road. They'd best move it out of that little pocket of Wales, away from the crap welsh police. They can spot a speeding motorist at 1km but not see ****-heads pilfering cars 100yrs away 
Andy
Andy
12 November 2003, 12:46 AM
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Time to move it back to its rightful place - Harogate / York base and bring back Grizedale (sp?) and the like and let the rest of the UK get a look in!!!
12 November 2003, 12:54 AM
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Can't believe Loix was done seven times on the same stretch of road. The copper should have his job taken away for that. Speed traps are there to allegedly, "prevent" speeding. If he was sat there all day nicking tens off drivers for speeding then wasn't it obvious to him that his "prevention" wasn't working? Aren't police officers meant to "uphold the law" or is simply watching somebody breaking it repeatedly and recording their identity an effective policing policy?
12 November 2003, 10:44 AM
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Come on, come on - usually with these threads we get a few coppers or their supporters defending their stance and telling everyone what a great job they do etc. etc.
So where are you all? Or is this one utterly indefensible even to you?
Regards,
tiggers.
So where are you all? Or is this one utterly indefensible even to you?
Regards,
tiggers.
12 November 2003, 10:58 AM
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AS I predicted a couple of days ago....
If this goes on, the Rally will end up being staged elsewhere and the Police will be directly responsible for the enormous loss of income to local business that will result.
Whoever sanctions these activities should resign as they are not fit to be a public servent (IMO)
In this thread http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=270007
Very sad, but inevitable.
UB
If this goes on, the Rally will end up being staged elsewhere and the Police will be directly responsible for the enormous loss of income to local business that will result.
Whoever sanctions these activities should resign as they are not fit to be a public servent (IMO)
In this thread http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=270007
Very sad, but inevitable.
UB
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12 November 2003, 11:15 AM
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Bring it back to Dalby Forest. I can still hear the Group B quattros and 6R4s at full noise through the trees, and see the brake discs glowing bright orange as they flew over the humps 
Once heard, never ever forgotten
Once heard, never ever forgotten
12 November 2003, 12:04 PM
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I drove on this particular stretch of road (B4242) twice over the weekend and it's a masterpiece of confusing signage.
You enter the 30 zone at a small village which probably lasts for 100 metres or so. The road then opens out into (and i'm not exaggerating) a road wide enough for three cars with a huge pavement and nothing but trees either side. I actually looked for signs to tell me the limit as i had assumed we were back on an unrestricted bit of road.
This stretch lasts for at least a mile and then passes a few more houses before finally becoming the national speed limit again.
It is a perfect place to catch people above the limit as it is almost impossible to work out what the limit is. Well done South Wales police. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
You enter the 30 zone at a small village which probably lasts for 100 metres or so. The road then opens out into (and i'm not exaggerating) a road wide enough for three cars with a huge pavement and nothing but trees either side. I actually looked for signs to tell me the limit as i had assumed we were back on an unrestricted bit of road.
This stretch lasts for at least a mile and then passes a few more houses before finally becoming the national speed limit again.
It is a perfect place to catch people above the limit as it is almost impossible to work out what the limit is. Well done South Wales police. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
12 November 2003, 12:17 PM
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personally, i hope the FIA gets a grip and moves it elsewhere in the UK.
the incident with gronholm would have been hilarious if it wasn't so tragically - and typically - small-minded. self-important civil servants gone mad.
are welsh policemen unable to tell the difference between an unworthy road car and a motorsport vehicle? in any other country - probably including england - he'd have been escorted by the cops to his destination. and it's not the first time a farce like this has occurred either.
pathetic.
the incident with gronholm would have been hilarious if it wasn't so tragically - and typically - small-minded. self-important civil servants gone mad.
are welsh policemen unable to tell the difference between an unworthy road car and a motorsport vehicle? in any other country - probably including england - he'd have been escorted by the cops to his destination. and it's not the first time a farce like this has occurred either.
pathetic.
12 November 2003, 12:35 PM
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This will hopefully be the slap in the face that the Welsh politicians and Police need. The WRC is a massive cash cow for this part of Wales but they still felt the need to pickpocket the visitors and competitors.
The judge described the piece of road in question as "very dangerous" and defended the Police's actions. We are talking about world's most skilled drivers, in £300,000 cars, who exceed 100mph on 300+ miles of twisty shale roads through forests, FFS [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
This is like telling the English Rugby team that its dangerous to run down the corridor, from their changing room to the pitch, for a final against the All Blacks.
I hope it does move from Wales. I think the FIA would find the roads of Yorkshire or Scotland are far less dangerous.
The judge described the piece of road in question as "very dangerous" and defended the Police's actions. We are talking about world's most skilled drivers, in £300,000 cars, who exceed 100mph on 300+ miles of twisty shale roads through forests, FFS [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
This is like telling the English Rugby team that its dangerous to run down the corridor, from their changing room to the pitch, for a final against the All Blacks.
I hope it does move from Wales. I think the FIA would find the roads of Yorkshire or Scotland are far less dangerous.
12 November 2003, 01:29 PM
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Nobody has mentioned that it was basically down to the competitors to drive within the law to protect their own rally. If they lay themselves wide open to being caught by the police against rally regulations as well as the road traffic act then it is hardly surprising that the FIA is annoyed. It has endangered a motorsport event purely due to stupid behaviour by drivers who seem to consider themselves so important that they are above the law. Life just is not like that. There are so many snipers against these events that the competitors just have to accept the fact that they have to behave themselves on the public roads. Plenty of chance to do the fast driving bit on the stages for goodness sake! As far as Gronholm is concerned, how can he expect a copper to allow him officially to drive on a public road with a seriously damaged vehicle? If his service vehicle was only reachable on public roads, he should have thought about that in advance and made sure he missed the obstruction which was in his pace notes!
Everyone knew the rules and also that the police were out to catch them. they have a Chief Constable who is against motorists. Whatever we think about that is one thing, but the fact is,they have the law on their side and if you drive outside the law you only have yourself to blame when you get caught. Trouble is,the competitors have risked their own rally's future existence due to their stupidity.
Les
Everyone knew the rules and also that the police were out to catch them. they have a Chief Constable who is against motorists. Whatever we think about that is one thing, but the fact is,they have the law on their side and if you drive outside the law you only have yourself to blame when you get caught. Trouble is,the competitors have risked their own rally's future existence due to their stupidity.
Les
12 November 2003, 01:45 PM
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We are talking about world's most skilled drivers, in £300,000 cars, who exceed 100mph on 300+ miles of twisty shale roads through forests, FFS
This is like telling the English Rugby team that its dangerous to run down the corridor, from their changing room to the pitch, for a final against the All Blacks.
This is like telling the English Rugby team that its dangerous to run down the corridor, from their changing room to the pitch, for a final against the All Blacks.
12 November 2003, 03:11 PM
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Les
There's nothing wrong with what you have said.
I wonder, though, if that copper set up his camera on the 2 mile stretch of public road between the end of the shakedown and its start, out of concern over a spate of recent accidents (if there have ever been any), or to nick some rally drivers.
Would it not have been a better public service for him to have sat at the end of the road and warned spectators that rally cars were using the road and to be careful?
Ah, silly me, no money to be made doing that.
I have driven many stages in Spain, shortly before the road has been closed for the rally. There have been Police on the side of the road blowing whistles, to let the early spectators know that I am coming through at a "brisk" pace.
Contrast and compare.
There's nothing wrong with what you have said.
I wonder, though, if that copper set up his camera on the 2 mile stretch of public road between the end of the shakedown and its start, out of concern over a spate of recent accidents (if there have ever been any), or to nick some rally drivers.
Would it not have been a better public service for him to have sat at the end of the road and warned spectators that rally cars were using the road and to be careful?
Ah, silly me, no money to be made doing that.
I have driven many stages in Spain, shortly before the road has been closed for the rally. There have been Police on the side of the road blowing whistles, to let the early spectators know that I am coming through at a "brisk" pace.
Contrast and compare.
12 November 2003, 03:24 PM
#16
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i am pissed off with 2 things in this thread , 1, the fukin plods have managed to *** things up for people again and 2, the fact that a hell of a lot of people on here sound jealous of the fact it was in wales . get a life , we didn't moan and gripe when it wasn't here !! i don't care where it is as long as there is a rally event in GB. NO WONDER WE WANTED DEVOLUTION !
12 November 2003, 03:30 PM
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Scoobydoooo
We aren't jealous at all. I've had some great times in Wales over the years and it used to be a fantastic event.
Its just that now the Police presence is so intense that I feel the roads of South Wales are obviously too dangerous for me.
For that reason, I haven't been for the past two years.
We aren't jealous at all. I've had some great times in Wales over the years and it used to be a fantastic event.
Its just that now the Police presence is so intense that I feel the roads of South Wales are obviously too dangerous for me.
For that reason, I haven't been for the past two years.
12 November 2003, 03:30 PM
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It's a very cynical abuse of their 'nanny state' powers that this government has seen fit to grant them IMO. People who hold that kind of responsiblity should exercise a little more discretion rather than the kind of 'meat head' attitudes that were displayed for all to see over the whole of the event.
Oh and Les, don't forget that while these 'crimes' were being committed, not far away property was being pilferred from cars and criminal damage caused to vehicles (real crime) on a large scale while the police did nothing whatever to prevent it.
Let's hope that this deprived region of Wales doesn't lose an income generator of the magnitude the WRC event because of the woeful attitude of the police. But, that looks like the way it's going to pan out.
UB
Oh and Les, don't forget that while these 'crimes' were being committed, not far away property was being pilferred from cars and criminal damage caused to vehicles (real crime) on a large scale while the police did nothing whatever to prevent it.
Let's hope that this deprived region of Wales doesn't lose an income generator of the magnitude the WRC event because of the woeful attitude of the police. But, that looks like the way it's going to pan out.
UB
12 November 2003, 04:44 PM
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Pete and UB.
I agree absolutely with what you say about the attitude towards the rally and also towards crime. I think that shows in my post anyway. Believe me. with a good many years of competition experience of my own I do realise the abilities of the competitors. My major interest in this is to maintain our motor sport. I am certainly not making an excuse for the attitude of the various authorities, just trying to be absolutely practical.
The point I made is that it is well known about the Chief Constable's attitude towards motorists as a whole and he must have thought Christmas came early when the rally appeared on his patch. I cannot believe that the drivers would not have realised that and I would be amazed if they were not warned by the organisers to cool it in between the stages. That is why it was crass stupidity on their part to lay themselves wide open to being caught by the police. They are just not important enough to be able to ignore the law and they have now put our own rally in danger as far as the authorities and the FIA are concerned. Was that really worth breaking the rally rules and the law?
With present day attitudes towards fast driving, and the media just waiting for a chance to jump in and make a big fuss for the sake of publicity, it is necessary to be particularly careful in these sorts of circumstances. Attitudes towards such competitions in this country are on a knife edge. The easiest thing for the authorities to do in the face of complaints is to just ban it. Why give them the excuse?
I believe it was irresponsible, selfish, and thoughtless of the competitors to drive like that thus risking future rallies. The attempted excuse of their undoubted driving ability just will not wash with the general public, the police, and the other authorities. This is an undeniable fact of life and we have to face up it.
Les
I agree absolutely with what you say about the attitude towards the rally and also towards crime. I think that shows in my post anyway. Believe me. with a good many years of competition experience of my own I do realise the abilities of the competitors. My major interest in this is to maintain our motor sport. I am certainly not making an excuse for the attitude of the various authorities, just trying to be absolutely practical.
The point I made is that it is well known about the Chief Constable's attitude towards motorists as a whole and he must have thought Christmas came early when the rally appeared on his patch. I cannot believe that the drivers would not have realised that and I would be amazed if they were not warned by the organisers to cool it in between the stages. That is why it was crass stupidity on their part to lay themselves wide open to being caught by the police. They are just not important enough to be able to ignore the law and they have now put our own rally in danger as far as the authorities and the FIA are concerned. Was that really worth breaking the rally rules and the law?
With present day attitudes towards fast driving, and the media just waiting for a chance to jump in and make a big fuss for the sake of publicity, it is necessary to be particularly careful in these sorts of circumstances. Attitudes towards such competitions in this country are on a knife edge. The easiest thing for the authorities to do in the face of complaints is to just ban it. Why give them the excuse?
I believe it was irresponsible, selfish, and thoughtless of the competitors to drive like that thus risking future rallies. The attempted excuse of their undoubted driving ability just will not wash with the general public, the police, and the other authorities. This is an undeniable fact of life and we have to face up it.
Les
12 November 2003, 05:14 PM
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So maybe the drivers should have stuck to the speed limits, but come on, as said by Pete, these guys are very very experienced drivers so it's not like some pish-head flying down the local bypass is it now?
The police and council were simply out to make money, end of story, and it's out of order, it's not like they did not know it was a rally driver they were pulling over.
The FIA should reloacte the GB rally from Wales to somwhere where the council and police force is not so obviously money grabbing.
The police and council were simply out to make money, end of story, and it's out of order, it's not like they did not know it was a rally driver they were pulling over.
The FIA should reloacte the GB rally from Wales to somwhere where the council and police force is not so obviously money grabbing.
12 November 2003, 05:21 PM
#25
Scoobydooooo
You wrote this drivel
What a load of ****! No-one is jealous of where the rally is it just stinks that you go to Wales and you get caught for speeding everywhere while some local welshboy ****** is nicking stereos etc from the car parks.
I was on rally GB two years ago at Margham park and the little local ******* were even stealing the advertising banners and packing them into their back-packs
Oh and p.s calling me an arsehole over the internet is oh so hard
You wrote this drivel
2, the fact that a hell of a lot of people on here sound jealous of the fact it was in wales . get a life , we didn't moan and gripe when it wasn't here !! i don't care where it is as long as there is a rally event in GB. NO WONDER WE WANTED DEVOLUTION !
it just stinks that you go to Wales and you get caught for speeding everywhere while some local welshboy ****** is nicking stereos etc from the car parks. I was on rally GB two years ago at Margham park and the little local ******* were even stealing the advertising banners and packing them into their back-packs
Oh and p.s calling me an arsehole over the internet is oh so hard
12 November 2003, 05:52 PM
#28
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while some local welshboy ****** is nicking stereos etc from the car parks.
12 November 2003, 05:54 PM
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Les,
nope did not read all of your post, probably should have done, sorry.
I can understand why the FIA would cease the Rally GB, which would be a shame. Sad that one group of people has to spoil it for everyone else.
nope did not read all of your post, probably should have done, sorry.
I can understand why the FIA would cease the Rally GB, which would be a shame. Sad that one group of people has to spoil it for everyone else.
12 November 2003, 06:17 PM
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i take your point les. however, there's a fundamental difference at stake here.
it's the difference between normal road use and the UK round of a key global motorsport event. many constabularies - in england at any rate - are/were well-versed in rally-management; competitor problems on public roads have always been rare and up until this current, hysterical era of speed-camera evangelism, breaches of speed by drivers have been treated with a discerning and sensible eye by the rozzers.
competitors are *not* normal road users; several neither live nor drive here; others' only taste of the UK is four days a year in bloody south wales. that's not an excuse, it's a fact.
if competitors drive dangerously on the public transfers then by all means through the book at them. but the simple answer is that they don't. but we all know that the police are increasingly applying speed cameras with a total, gleeful and £greedy abandon that pays no attention whatsoever to road, light, weather conditions or circumstances. we all know that they do slightly complicate or change speed limits into bagging the unwary & the careless. simply targets and revenue.
catch as many rally "fans" and wannabees hooning it around between stages as you like - they present a far greater threat to other road users - and they're were a few knocking around this weekend as i saw for myself.
but welsh police and the welsh assembly perspective has evaporated in this matter. they cannot tell the difference between normal road use and the special circumstances for competitor drivers in this event. what have they achieved precisely? well, an investigation by the FIA into whether or not the rally should stay in wales. have they created goodwill from the teams? i doubt it.
such are the fruits of a fundamentalist, blind devotion to the road traffic dogma of the day.
this explains why gronholm's car was "grounded" rather than be given a police escort to help him get his damaged car to its destination. it explains why makkinen's car (2001??) was similarly obstructed a few years ago when he lost his wheel. he could have limped on slowly with a police escort, but no, the bureaucratic bloody-minded flatfoot said "OI YOU, NO!"
they damage this regional cash cow through their own stupidity at their peril. our little posse of 10 contributed £3K+ between us to the port talbot economy this year. 200,000 spectators: that's a lot of cash coming in.
on the basis of a total lack of sensible policing that sees competitors booked for minor breaches but ignores petty crime and burglary on stage - plus rigid & pious attitudes worthy of Transport2000 that hide a hypocritical desire to make income regardless of circumstance - i'd rather spend my money at a new venue.
but where? the technology-obsessed, automaton police mindset in this country is seeping deeper all the time.
just my thoughts, for what they're worth.
it's the difference between normal road use and the UK round of a key global motorsport event. many constabularies - in england at any rate - are/were well-versed in rally-management; competitor problems on public roads have always been rare and up until this current, hysterical era of speed-camera evangelism, breaches of speed by drivers have been treated with a discerning and sensible eye by the rozzers.
competitors are *not* normal road users; several neither live nor drive here; others' only taste of the UK is four days a year in bloody south wales. that's not an excuse, it's a fact.
if competitors drive dangerously on the public transfers then by all means through the book at them. but the simple answer is that they don't. but we all know that the police are increasingly applying speed cameras with a total, gleeful and £greedy abandon that pays no attention whatsoever to road, light, weather conditions or circumstances. we all know that they do slightly complicate or change speed limits into bagging the unwary & the careless. simply targets and revenue.
catch as many rally "fans" and wannabees hooning it around between stages as you like - they present a far greater threat to other road users - and they're were a few knocking around this weekend as i saw for myself.
but welsh police and the welsh assembly perspective has evaporated in this matter. they cannot tell the difference between normal road use and the special circumstances for competitor drivers in this event. what have they achieved precisely? well, an investigation by the FIA into whether or not the rally should stay in wales. have they created goodwill from the teams? i doubt it.
such are the fruits of a fundamentalist, blind devotion to the road traffic dogma of the day.
this explains why gronholm's car was "grounded" rather than be given a police escort to help him get his damaged car to its destination. it explains why makkinen's car (2001??) was similarly obstructed a few years ago when he lost his wheel. he could have limped on slowly with a police escort, but no, the bureaucratic bloody-minded flatfoot said "OI YOU, NO!"
they damage this regional cash cow through their own stupidity at their peril. our little posse of 10 contributed £3K+ between us to the port talbot economy this year. 200,000 spectators: that's a lot of cash coming in.
on the basis of a total lack of sensible policing that sees competitors booked for minor breaches but ignores petty crime and burglary on stage - plus rigid & pious attitudes worthy of Transport2000 that hide a hypocritical desire to make income regardless of circumstance - i'd rather spend my money at a new venue.
but where? the technology-obsessed, automaton police mindset in this country is seeping deeper all the time.
just my thoughts, for what they're worth.