Ian E

iTrader: (1)

Currently have a 2002 Kona Pahoehoe which is fitted with Hayes mechanical disc brakes. The brakes are very poor - wooden feeling, not much feedback and not that good at stopping
I am thinking of upgrading to Hydraulics - anyone got any recommendations? Would the frame mountings / Shimano hubs be ok with another manufacturers brakes?

Thanks for any replies,

Cheers,

Ian.

gljam

HOPE HOPE HOPE! anyone else that tells you otherwise is a liar and should be ashamed of themselves

Ian E

iTrader: (1)

Hope - A mate says the same. What are the shimano hydraulics like?

Are disc brake mountings universal?

Cheers,

Ian.

Luke

What type of riding do you do????


Until the new Hope Mono's are fully up and tested by the public to see if there are any problems.I would do some research.......

if you do buy hope they offer fantastic after service.............and you will need it!!! I am a memebr of 3 different bike related sites here in UK and US and without a doubt Hope tend to be the main complained about products.. So many blown seals and set up problems.....

if you want to try the best mech brake go for Avid's..they win every time. Hydro's well........... hayes are getting excellent reports. Shimano also.. I run their cheapest set 525's on my Intense Tracer worth £3k and they are much better than the Hope Minis...

good luck to Hope with their new designs........ But until this time next year when any teething problems have come to light..I will stick to the 525's.

[Edited by Luke - 10/28/2003 10:05:51 PM]

Ian E

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the replies

The riding I do is mainly off road cross country - Peaks / Dales / Lakes etc.

Shimano sound tempting if lower maintenance. How much are the Shimanos?

Cheers,

Ian.

Luke

525's are OEM so you cant just buy them..you need to find a shop with a set taken off a bike. Most will have them. The Xt's work out about £90.00 each... Mine where £110.00 the set.

The new Xts look very interesting....

Dont worry tooooooo much about the macho "The bigger the disc the better" krap... a well set up and working 160mm is fine for XC.

super_si

Think ive got the Shimano's on my Kona. I love them

Si

Daz34

How about sticking these on your wheels?

IWatkins

Forget Hopes. When they work they are great. However, I and everyone I know have had nothing but problems with them. All IMHO etc.

Try Avid mechs, they are the business and easy to set up and adjust without any of that nasty fluid.

Cheers

Ian

Brit_in_Japan

Everyone I know who has Hope brakes rave about them, their stopping power, adjustable levers to change where they bite and their low maintenance.

And these friends ride hard most weekends, so it's not as though the brakes are not being tested.

I'm at a loss to explain why some people have no problems with Hope whilst others have a different experience. Any idea ? Maybe there are different standards of Hope kit ?

Luke

*Maybe there are different standards of Hope kit ? *

yes there are

The 90% that have problems and the 2 % that dont.

Someone in france has broken a huge amount of bones last month due to new seals blowing on a pair of hopes...


Sorry when I need to brake . I want to know the brakes wont fall apart.

Avid do a 205mm front !!!!!!. Tooooooooooo much "Hope rules" in this country.......

Luke

Si

are they black with white shimano on the side??? or a silver grey??

289

I run Hope Minis on one of my bikes and Shimano XT discs on the other (std fit). I'd say the Minis have the edge in terms of feel and both have equal stopping power. A holiday in Les Gets in July showed the Minis to have problems with fade after a long (3km+) descent, whereas the Shimanos had no issues.

I'm mystified as to why some people hate Hope, others rate them - perhaps it's poor quality control. Either way, if I were fitting aftermarket discs, I'd not hesitate to fit Hope again (famous last words) though I'd be tempted by some of the M4s.

Just to slightly go against Luke, the size of the rotor has nothing to do with stopping power, it's all to do with heat dissipation. So in the UK you're unlikely to have issues, given the length of descents and the greater prevalence of water to act as a coolant, but if you're planning longer descents in hotter climes you may have issues. So I'd probably go for the 185mm Minis were I to fit them again.

As ever, all IMHO

AvalancheS8

With the greatest respect, that's nonsense. Stopping power is directly proportional to the size of the disc, think of it as a lever, any kind of brake works at a disadvantage because the distance from the hub to the tyre contact patch is greater than that from the hub to the brake, but you can clearly see that doubling the size of the disc will double the length of the lever arm and therefore the power of the brake.

As for which brakes to go, over on Descent-world (where I come from in Forum terms) you'll find opinions split between Hope and Hayes, with a few people saying Shimano. Hope are beautifully made, and if you get a good set they work very well, I use Hope and will stick with them, there is nothing wrong with them that can't be easily enough sorted. Hayes are simpler, and allegedly more reliable, but not nearly so nice looking and the lever is prone to bending, many people also find it uncomfortable to use. In addition the modulation (ability to finely control the power) is not as good as Hopes. Shimanos , at least in the XT incarnantion appear to have only one major flaw - it's a total bi*ch to get hold of spares, e.g seals as shimano only sell complete calipers. There are shops that will sell Shimano seals, but it can be hard to get hold of them.

Cable operated discs? Once you have used a good pair of Hydros all year without having to touch them or clean and replace cables you will understand why there is no comparison. In California, or if you only ride in the Summer then maybe, but for normal U,K weather, not a chance.

Edit to say your frame and hub mountings should be fine, there is indeed a standard for disc mountings. The shop you get you brakes from will be able to sort you out with the right calipers to go with your frame and disc size.

[Edited by AvalancheS8 - 10/29/2003 8:32:06 AM]

Luke

This is interesting........... so why are so many new brakes running 160mm disks?? including the new XT's... The very large disks will stop you better but only if the Caliper can do its job.

Its all again..a bit Macho "look at the size of my disc's"


Jesus remeber the 144mm hopes use to make??? they stopped bloody well.

Most never realy nead massive brakes.Unless going for major down hill

I have been there.read the book,wrote a chapter in the book,got various t- shirts and found that all I want is reliable equipment. You cant get new seals in the middle of no where.

Hope needs to get it quality control back on line ..and to ensure any fitters working ina shop have been fully trained.

289

Avalanche, I can see we're going to disagree on this.

The actual stopping power of a brakes is a function of frictional area i.e. what the pad/disc interface is. If you look at Hope 165mm vs 185mm and can spot a difference in the frictional area I'll be astonished.

Where the bigger rotor DOES have an advantage is that the ratio of braked to unbraked areas is smaller, meaning that each bit of disc is used less often in each rotation because there's more of it. Which means that it has a greater chance to cool, vital as a brake is essentially a heat exchanger, and the greater the dissipation, the greater the chance of avoiding fade.

Luke

Shimao 525's and deores have a 2mm larger pistion than minis!!

AvalancheS8

Yes we are going to disagree and I'm afraid that it's because you are not fully understanding the mechanics involved. No offence, but I'm an engineer, I do this kind of calculation every day, I ride DH mountain bikes on the weekend and I have 5 years experience as a mechanic in the largest bike shop in Scotland, I'm not just making this stuff up.

Yes the larger discs have an advantage in terms of heat disapation, no they do not have any noticeable increase in pad to rotor contact area, but anyway, that wouldn't help, as you'll know if you feel in a position to argue this point, frictional force produced is not related to the area in contact, only to the co-efficent of friction and the normal force, so for the same caliper and the same applied pull at the lever you get the same frictional force AT THE DISC. What you are overlooking is the conversion of that frictional force into a torque and then back into a linear force at the tyre contact patch. In round numbers:

Say the frictional force produced at the contact between the disc and the pads is 10 lbs, and that the radius of the disc is 2 inches, while the radius of the wheel is 13 inches. The braking torque produced is 10 x 2 = 20 in-lbf, therefore the force produced at the tyre contact patch is 20/13 = 1.538 lbf (pounds force).

Now double the size of the disc to 4 inches radius (the size of a typical DH bike disc) the frictional force produced on the disc is still 10 lbf, but the braking torque is now 10 x 4 = 40 in-lbf, and the force at the tyre contact patch is now 40/13 = 3.076 lbf, which is double.

This is why bigger discs are used on bikes, motorbikes, cars and so on when better braking is needed. The heat disapation is a secondary advantage.

As to why most bikes use 160 mm discs, it's because that is plenty big enough for the power you need in XC riding and they are lighter. The 200mm discs on DH bike give huge stopping power but can be a little grabby and over powerful for normal riding.

(Edit for spelling.)
Hope this clears it up for you.

[Edited by AvalancheS8 - 10/29/2003 9:16:17 AM]

Luke

Still no good when your pads have worn out within a morning and your seals have gone pop!!!

289

Now if I knew what a normal force or a linear force were I'd understand.

But it looks as though I'm wrong, so unlike Dido I'll wave a white flag on this one. Thanks for attempting to explain.

AvalancheS8

No, but I've seen people swear off Hopes because they are unreliable, go to Hayes and be happy, I've seen people swear off Hayes because they are unreliable go to Hopes and be happy and I've seen people buy Shimanos and claim superiority over everyone else until their seals wear out. Basically it comes down to picking which ever brand you like the look of and going from there.

flat4

Formula's B4 Team are getting some great reviews (took all the awards in WMB recently) and are cheaper than most aswell


kev

Luke

interesting about shimano spares problem..... I always found a nice little letter did the trick..

Luke

B4's are very nice brakes...just dont bash the levers.....

flat4

aparently they're meant to fall apart to stop them breaking when you wipeout

flat4

some reviews:

MBR Magazine Review

"For general XC riding, the B4 is an excellent brake. It is light, low maintenance and offers all the advantages of discs without the extra weight. With the B4 Formula seem to have hit the magic formula - cheap and lightweight."

Conclusion: Overall, it's one of the best XC/trail discs brakes we've ever tested.

Rating: 5/5



MBUK Magazine Review

Conclusion: Formula has the edge on weight and price for racers with the blinding B4...Absolutely Superb, ultralight XC brake

Rating: 5/5



WHAT MTB Magazine Review

Conclusion: Superb value and XC performance from the base model of the italian anchor family

Rating: Performance: 10/10 Value: 9/10

Awarded: GOLD, CHOICE & VALUE AWARD

messiah

Mountian bike nut in the office says you can't go wrong with Shimano as "they totally know what they're doing" - although he didnt sound like a surfer when he said it.

super_si

Black and white luke i think. The front ones the 04 version. backs 03. i would go look but im tired.

As for bedding in, whats the best way?

It was wet outside today and they make hell of a noise. You know the noise when you get GT45 on your break pads. That high pitched screaching noise. Sounded like that. Didnt dare brake all the way to work

Si

iain ross

hope mini get them for around £100, great performance for cross country and light dh use.

Luke

si

keep going you will find they get sooooooo much better . This time next week you should realy notice the difference. The noise in the wet can be down to pad compound?? but tends to go.